Healing Surges

[Hypersmurf]

'The Titanic's sinking, now's a good time for a nuclear bomb.'

Hmm. That gives me an idea for a Mutants and Masterminds one-shot...

-Hyp.

 

[Rafe]

Trying to add threat value to what is fighting characters that are at zero healing surges because they are at zero healing surges is like stabbing at people in the hospital who are in critical condition from knife wounds and saying 'they don't respect the knife enough.'

It's dickery, and nothing more.

If the monsters can't deal hp damage and can only hit their healing surges, if you -need- threat the DM should have included monsters capable of finishing off the party. That's good tactics and fourth edition design. If you're in battle and suddenly your healing surges have been utterly depleted, and the battle isn't over... guess what? You're screwed! That's enough tension and threat, and you don't need to make it worse, especially not in 4e where hps are supposed to fluctuate up and down rapidly.

Given that the damage most standard monsters deal is enough to be a large threat to a party member who -can't- heal, WHY OH WHY would you want to make the damage -worse- just because he happens to be screwed already?

'The Titanic's sinking, now's a good time for a nuclear bomb.'

Speaking -as a DM- that is dickery, and too much.

As a DM, you're not supposed to execute party members for signing up to play a game of D&D. You're supposed to make party member death probable enough that the party respects the challenges they face and feel like they've overcome the odds.

Thank you for exaggerating my point(s) far into the Land of the Ludicrous.

I said some effect should still occur, whether it be damage or a minor penalty. Otherwise, you're not allowing for the attack's full effect. If you're level 4, 4 damage is not a "nuclear bomb" and neither is a -1 attack penalty. Please don't put words in my mouth. If you can't address the issue without extreme exaggeration... well, enough said.

My additional point is that a DM using monsters with healing surge draining abilities needs to take those abilities into consideration when building the encounter. It's the DM's fault if 5 Whatevers devastate a party of PCs because each attack they have drains a healing surge. That's regardless of whether or not a DM chooses to apply a "zero healing surges left" penalty or damage replacement.

Regardless, let's get back on topic. The question was raised whether or not people would simply say nothing happens when a healing surge drain is used on a character with no healing surges or whether there is a rule that compensates. My argument is for a replacement for the healing surge drain. Given the situation is very akin to starvation/drowning in terms of healing surge losses and what happens when a PC is at zero, I agreed with others that a -1 penalty was a good idea. The OP can decide on whatever opinion he likes.

 

[eamon]

Nobody's disputing that. I was taking issue with Gruns' assertion that getting poisoned twice means you need two successful saves to stop taking ongoing damage.

One save per type of ongoing damage, not one save per instance of the same type of ongoing damage, is what the rule says.

I think that quote isn't that clear, and in any case, the rule a very unfortunate one.

I don't think there's anything wrong with limiting stacking, and I don't think that twice ongoing 5 poison damage should deal 10 damage a round, however, many effects conflate ongoing damage with other consequences and have a save that ends both. Is it reasonable "merge" two such saving throws too, simply because they deal the same type of ongoing damage?

A rule that requires you to perform one saving throw per type of ongoing damage is in subtle contradiction with most powers that cause both ongoing damage and other save-ends consequences.

Therefore, regardless of the text, using that rule leads to absurdity.

To avoid that, I'd interpret that section narrowly: you perform only one saving throw per damage type to end ongoing damage, but only to end those effects that consist solely of ongoing damage.

If you really want to split hairs, note that the text doesn't say you perform at most one save for any damage type, simply that you save separately against different ongoing damage types. In other words, the rule doesn't actually come out and say you save only once per damage type. The section "Different types of ongoing damage" says you make separate throws, but the section "The same type of ongoing damage" does not say you make only one save.

Frankly, I think a WotC clarification that explicitly deals with "prepackaged" ongoing damage+rider effect saves is in order.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Frankly, I think a WotC clarification that explicitly deals with "prepackaged" ongoing damage+rider effect saves is in order.

Why? They already said "One Rule, Many Exceptions."

Do you need to have all the exceptions pointed out to you, like a three year old would? I'd hope not, given how intelligently you've been discussing things.

 

[James McMurray]

How about instead of adding a rule, you modify the situation? Rather than add a rule that causes victims to lose <level> hit points when they're out of surges, add environmental constraints that cause it. The creatures in the MM that steal surges, and some sample fights:

Atropal: fighting the thing in the negative plane, each round the PCs must make an Endurance check with a level appropriate DC. If they fail, they lose hit points equal to their level from life draining and lack of air.

Bodak: Not needing to breathe, the bodaks can activate a trap that pours smoke into the room, causing a risk of suffocation.

Death Titan: already has a negative effect, so no environmental changes needed.

Deathlock Wight: on the banks of an underground river, foes with no remaining healing surges can be pushed into the current with the wight's horrific visage and any push effects its allies may have. While there they have to manage to swim to shore against the current and avoid drowning. This could be very difficult if they're immobilized.

Other wights could have similar encounters. Make the lead wight a Slaughter Wight and give him undead allies whose basic attacks have a push effect, and his Death Wail could have disastrous consequences.

In a protracted adventure, intelligent surge draining undead could attack the party to steal their energy and keep them busy while decrepit skeletons fire flaming arrows at the wagon where the food is stored. Continual harassment by skirmisher undead (who don't need to sleep and can easily flee) will prevent long rests. This forces the party to retreat, counterattack while low on surges, or risk sleepless starvation and a slow death of a thousand cuts.

 

[Rafe]

How about instead of adding a rule, you modify the situation? Rather than add a rule that causes victims to lose <level> hit points when they're out of surges, add environmental constraints that cause it. The creatures in the MM that steal surges, and some sample fights:

Atropal: fighting the thing in the negative plane, each round the PCs must make an Endurance check with a level appropriate DC. If they fail, they lose hit points equal to their level from life draining and lack of air.

Bodak: Not needing to breathe, the bodaks can activate a trap that pours smoke into the room, causing a risk of suffocation.

Death Titan: already has a negative effect, so no environmental changes needed.

Deathlock Wight: on the banks of an underground river, foes with no remaining healing surges can be pushed into the current with the wight's horrific visage and any push effects its allies may have. While there they have to manage to swim to shore against the current and avoid drowning. This could be very difficult if they're immobilized.

Other wights could have similar encounters. Make the lead wight a Slaughter Wight and give him undead allies whose basic attacks have a push effect, and his Death Wail could have disastrous consequences.

In a protracted adventure, intelligent surge draining undead could attack the party to steal their energy and keep them busy while decrepit skeletons fire flaming arrows at the wagon where the food is stored. Continual harassment by skirmisher undead (who don't need to sleep and can easily flee) will prevent long rests. This forces the party to retreat, counterattack while low on surges, or risk sleepless starvation and a slow death of a thousand cuts.

I want to game with you. Wonder how far the commute would be...

 

[James McMurray]

Depends on how close to Fort Worth Texas you are.

 

[Rafe]

Depends on how close to Fort Worth Texas you are.

Just a wee bit of a drive. No biggie.

 

[James McMurray]

Great! We'll see you Friday @ 6:30? Bring a 24th level PC.

 

[Rafe]

Great! We'll see you Friday @ 6:30? Bring a 24th level PC.

Central or Eastern time?

I think it'd take me longer to create a PC for 24th level than it would to drive there. heh


Anyhoo... hopefully Falstaff has some food for thought and the discussion has opened up some possibilities for him.