Healing Surges

[Rafe]

I think that, by the time your healing surges are depleted, you've probably been punished enough. If you don't have a surge to lose, don't lose it. If they're truly getting into the game, they should be worried enough by the time they reach that point.

If they carry on with no healing surges left, they deserve to be punished. They need to find a spot to take an extended rest or ought to have done so before hitting that point. I have yet to play in a 4e game/session where the lowest person didn't have at least 4 healing surges left, even after a few encounters in a row.

So I say again: if the party has gotten to the point where they have no healing surges left and they're still going, keep hitting them.

As for losing the surge value in hp, though, be careful about punishing Dragonborn for having high Constitution. You might keep it a static value (5 per tier?) so that ANY characters with higher Con aren't punished for being more durable, either.

How is it punishing any one character? A healing surge value is 1/4 of hp, regardless of class or number of hp. A Wizard with 24 hp is losing 6 and a Fighter with 32 is losing 8. 1/4 is 1/4.

However, I certainly agree with the second part. 5 per tier sounds good, especially given losing a healing surge is not, technically, losing health. Just the capability to heal.

 

[elecgraystone]

I personally think there should be some effect, or there is technically no threat.

Well losing surge value hp seems way too far the other direction. Before the attack did damage + losing a healing surge. Bad but not too bad. After you lose all you surges the attacks do normal damage PLUS 1/4 your hp? Sounds pretty harsh. Did the attack do more that 1/4 your hp before? Seems like it got stronger

If you HAD to do something, I'd say give the person a -1 exhaustion penalty per lost surge. Something that doesn't directly kill the character.

I have yet to play in a 4e game/session where the lowest person didn't have at least 4 healing surges left, even after a few encounters in a row

Lets use 4 then. Monsters jump out of hiding and flank one character doing quite a bit of damage and making lose 2 surges. The other party members heal him making him lose two more but taking him to full HP. So after the first round of combat he should take super deadly attacks because he was unlucky?

 

[Rafe]

Lets use 4 then. Monsters jump out of hiding and flank one character doing quite a bit of damage and making lose 2 surges. The other party members heal him making him lose two more but taking him to full HP.

How many monsters have attacks that drain a healing surge? 2% of all monsters in the MM, if that?

So after the first round of combat he should take super deadly attacks because he was unlucky?

Yes.

The alternative is taking all the risk out of the game and having the DM be a guardian angel. Once the players realize this, immersion and fun go out the door. Let's just get rid of dice and have the DM say: "You're under attack by *whatever* but, after some good back and forth fighting, you made it through. It was tough but you're all fine."

That said, I like your exhaustion penalty idea but I'd stack it with the static damage per tier. 5 was put forward and I think that's a good number.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

If you're talking about a power, then I think it should do nothing. If I use a power that immobilizes an opponent on someone that's already immobilized, should I be able to dock his actual movement when he's mobile again? Meaning, should I be able to say "Well, he's already immobilized, so after he gets rid of that, let's remove 2 points of move distance".

Of if I use a power with the "blind" keyword on an enemy that doesn't see in the first place, should I suddenly be able to say "Fine, he's deafened then"? That's not really fair to the creature, is it? It's also not what was intended by the power.

When a power is trying to achieve a certain effect, but can't, then it just shouldn't achieve that effect. The monsters should be smart enough to use another attack if the PC has no surges left. And yeah, it's kind of meta, but if we were talking about something that was sort of "sucking the life" out of the character, then they would know that he was empty. As such, why keep trying? Why not just instead use a power that does more direct damage to finish him off?

 

[Victim]

How is it punishing any one character? A healing surge value is 1/4 of hp, regardless of class or number of hp. A Wizard with 24 hp is losing 6 and a Fighter with 32 is losing 8. 1/4 is 1/4.

Except when a character has a bonus to Healing Surge value, like a Dragonborn, Dwarven Durability, Belt of Vigor.

If a character has no surges and is taking damage, he's probably in enough trouble.

There are a lot of effects that don't really stack - a marked character can't become double marked. An immobilized person hit by another immobilize is no worse off. If you're going to make draining surges have an additional effect when the target is already drained of surges, then what about all the other effects that aren't going to stack?

 

[elecgraystone]

The alternative is taking all the risk out of the game and having the DM be a guardian angel.

The character has no surges, is VERY hard to heal AND we know he's already under attack since he lose the surges to an attack. I don't see the need to make a bad situation worse by adding free damage to the next attack.

Let me put it this way, your already poisoned with a 5 ongoing damage. The creature that poisoned you hits you again. Should the poison go to a ongoing 10 JUST so it keeps the game risky? Just like you can't be 'more' poisoned, you can't be drained of something you don't have.

 

[DracoSuave]

If your monster is banging on someone and has depleted them of all their healing surges, it's time to switch powers to something effective. If they don't have that, then their threat value is 'used up' and in a manner that is extremely effective. Your -other- monsters should get into position to capitalize--utilizing nothing but non-damaging monsters and then wondering where the threatvalue is... that's somewhat failing in my opinion.

And if the monster's ability is damage + loss of healing surge, then it doesn't need to be said the power still works, and that damage is even more dangerous now that it's unhealable.

 

[Gruns]

Can't be more poisoned?

Let me put it this way, your already poisoned with a 5 ongoing damage. The creature that poisoned you hits you again. Should the poison go to a ongoing 10 JUST so it keeps the game risky? Just like you can't be 'more' poisoned, you can't be drained of something you don't have.

While I'm on the side of "Nothing hapens when you're out of Healing Surges and are forced to lose one", I don't agree about the poison.
If you're taking ongoing posion 5, and get hit with the same attack, you now have 2 instances of ongoing poison 5, both of which must be saved against. I'm not sure where you get the "You can't be more poisoned" thing from. If you get stung by a bee, you're probably fine. If you get stung by 1000 bees, you're probably dead.
Later!
Gruns

 

[Hypersmurf]

If you're taking ongoing posion 5, and get hit with the same attack, you now have 2 instances of ongoing poison 5, both of which must be saved against.

PHB p279, Ongoing Damage: "You make a separate saving throw against each damage type."

You are suffering ongoing poison damage; you make a saving throw against the damage type, "poison".

-Hyp.

 

[James McMurray]

If you're going to have it deal damage, hp equal to the surge value is way too much, especially in the middle of a fight. You could have it work like drowning. If you're drowning and should lose a surge but don't have one, you lose hit points equal to your level. DMG p. 159. Starvation and thirst work the same way.