Healing Surges

[Rafe]

But my point Rafe is that an an attack that takes a healing surge DID do something up until you lost them all.

And, following that, there's no effect. That's a problem.

The part I've put in bold is my issue, which is why I think "take your level in damage" is a good ruling in this case. After all, having a healing surge removed/drained is like becoming winded or fatigued and, thus, why using starvation/drowning rules works well in this case.

I say again: If you have a DM who keeps throwing at you monsters who drain healing surges, find a new DM.

 

[elecgraystone]

I'm sorry but I still can't see the need for it to do something more than making 90% of healing not work on you. Why are you trying to add a damage effect to a drain that doesn't physically hurt you? It JUST effects your ability to heal. Not healing doesn't equal damaging you.

Saying things about what the Dm is throwing doesn't change what I think is a bad ruling. So the Dm just should never use healing surge draining monsters because you wish to make them super deadly?

 

[Syrsuro]

My ruling would probably depend on circumstances and might not be consistant from session to session (although it hopefully would be consistant from situation to situation).

If we are talking about the loss of a healing surge to represent exhaustion, etc. during a skill challenge I would probably apply a generic (cumulative) penalty of -1 to future skill checks during that skill challenge.

If we are talking about a draining attack by some creature I would probably apply a (cumulative) penalty of -1 to death saving throws until the character has had a chance to rest.

By applying it to the death saving throw I avoid creating a penalty which brings the character down more quickly (he's already in trouble, I don't want to increase the damage he takes) , however a genuine consequence is created for the character as they are now nearer to death.

Carl

 

[Rafe]

I'm sorry but I still can't see the need for it to do something more than making 90% of healing not work on you. Why are you trying to add a damage effect to a drain that doesn't physically hurt you? It JUST effects your ability to heal. Not healing doesn't equal damaging you.

Then we may need to agree to disagree. My main point - and one that everyone else is agreeing with - is this: I think it's silly to have an effect that is supposed to be negative not do anything. A healing surge isn't like a video game power pack. It represents one's stamina and reserve will to persevere against the odds; having one's life force drained, per se (which is exactly what it is and what it's replacing from 3.x).

Saying things about what the Dm is throwing doesn't change what I think is a bad ruling. So the Dm just should never use healing surge draining monsters because you wish to make them super deadly?

No, I think you misunderstand me. I said "keeps throwing..." which means "constantly doing so." When 2% of all monsters in the MM have healing surge draining abilities and you keep running into them, that's a case of a DM being a sadist (or utterly unimaginative, which is far worse in a roleplaying game). Also, they're not "super deadly" simply because they do damage equal to one's level. Technically, that's less powerful than removing a healing surge as a healing surge represents one's ability to regain 1/4 health (plus whatever bonuses apply). One is direct damage and the other is indirect. If, after the fight, a PC with 15/20 hp can't regain health lost because surges have been drained, they've essentially taken 5 damage.

My point is: the power, if used on someone with no healing surges to drain, should still do something. I totally agree with you that they're already in a bad way if the party has no healing surges left but I don't think that's any reason to remove part of a monster's ability. That's also why - way way up in this conversation - I agreed with your idea of a -1 cumulative penalty to represent further exhaustion, etc.

Something needs to fill the void. If damage is seen as too excessive, then apply a penalty to rolls, as you yourself suggested.

 

[cmbarona]

My main point - and one that everyone else is agreeing with - is this: I think it's silly to have an effect that is supposed to be negative not do anything.

My underline. I don't agree with you. I agree with elecgraystone.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

My underline. I don't agree with you. I agree with elecgraystone.

Same here. I think it's needlessly punishing a PC, and I think it violates some of the (spirit of the) rules about stacking ongoing damage and such.

 

[DracoSuave]

Trying to add threat value to what is fighting characters that are at zero healing surges because they are at zero healing surges is like stabbing at people in the hospital who are in critical condition from knife wounds and saying 'they don't respect the knife enough.'

It's dickery, and nothing more.

If the monsters can't deal hp damage and can only hit their healing surges, if you -need- threat the DM should have included monsters capable of finishing off the party. That's good tactics and fourth edition design. If you're in battle and suddenly your healing surges have been utterly depleted, and the battle isn't over... guess what? You're screwed! That's enough tension and threat, and you don't need to make it worse, especially not in 4e where hps are supposed to fluctuate up and down rapidly.

Given that the damage most standard monsters deal is enough to be a large threat to a party member who -can't- heal, WHY OH WHY would you want to make the damage -worse- just because he happens to be screwed already?

'The Titanic's sinking, now's a good time for a nuclear bomb.'

Speaking -as a DM- that is dickery, and too much.

As a DM, you're not supposed to execute party members for signing up to play a game of D&D. You're supposed to make party member death probable enough that the party respects the challenges they face and feel like they've overcome the odds.

 

[Stalker0]

So to summary the rules, as we are in the rules forum.

1) RAW: There are no additional effects if you lose a healing surge and have none left in reference to combat. (since this is exception based design, any monster entry can of course override that).

2) There are other rules in the book, dealing with fatigue and the like, that do provide extra penalties for losing surges beyond your maximum. This are good suggestions for a house rule to number 1 for parties that wish it.

 

[Rafe]

Hmmm... my bad, then. I was seeing a lot of agreement for some kind of penalty. Scratch the "everyone" and change it to "a decent number."

 

[ValhallaGH]

My underline. I don't agree with you. I agree with elecgraystone.

Quoted for the truth of his words.