Healing Surges

[Doctor Proctor]

Yes. The game is -not- safe. Compare monster damage capacity with the hps of your standard character. Then take away all healing ability for said character. You'll find character will tend to be very very doomed.

Hps in 4e are much more like a rollercoaster. They go down and up rapidly, and when they go down they go down FAST. Remove the ability to go up, and that character is definately in -great- danger.

Exactly. Back in the 2e days, for example, you had your supply of hit points and that was it. If you got really low then you could use some healing spells or potions to boost you back up, or you could lay in bed for like a month. Either way, you had essentially one pool.

Now, we have a different system. You have your pool of hit points, which in the case of my level 2 Fighter is 42. He has 12 surges, each with a surge value of 13 (gotta love Dragonborn at low levels ). The value of those surges then, is 156 hit points. When combined with the original 42, we get a total of 198. This means that at 2nd level I have essentially 198 total hit points that I can access before there is nothing left. So taking away all my surges means you have dropped me 156 hit points, and then you want to start adding in some crazy direct damage effects too because that's not scary enough?

Either your players don't have a proper appreciation for what surges represent, or you don't. They're effectively part of your total hit points, you just don't have access to them all at once. Taking them all away means you have removed any ability to heal from damage, as well as having removed 156 of my effective hit point total. This is a huge effect that I think you are not fully appreciating, and isn't a "Safe" situation to be in at all.

 

[Rafe]

It's interesting that this conversation has come full circle... and is, more or less, starting over again. I think there are lots of good options given here for any DM who wants to use them, based on how they feel the situation ought to be handled:

1) Nothing happens. No healing surges means that none can be lost. Using this option (ie, changing nothing from the rules) could be put to good use in conjunction with environments where healing surge losses matter (James_McMurray). The most player-friendly option.

2) Healing surge value in hp is lost. Not a good option, and I'm the one who suggested it! ... I think. Adds damage on top of damage which is too heavy handed.

3) Damage equivalent to PC level is taken. A middle-ground option between 2) and 4) for those DMs who want some kind of hp reduction.

4) A cumulative penalty to attack and damage rolls to represent the life drains as fatigue/exhaustion. An option that allows for something to happen without players being hit too hard by an effect.

5) An old-school "negative" healing surges/death option. The most deadly of the suggestions (as it results in death; there are no "negative" surges (Syrsuro)) but one that brings back some of the traditional dangers associated with certain undead.

So I'm thinking that, at this point, we can pretty much leave the discussion there and let people choose their poison, unless more options arise that are different from the above.

I don't want to close the discussion off but it's clear that people feel pretty strongly about certain options and, ultimately, the choice is dependent on the group, the DM and how well the various choices fit into the flavour of the overall campaign.

 

[Syrsuro]

It's interesting that this conversation has come full circle... and is, more or less, starting over again. I think there are lots of good options given here for any DM who wants to use them, based on how they feel the situation ought to be handled:

1) Nothing happens. No healing surges means that none can be lost. The most player-friendly option.

2) Healing surge value in hp is lost. Not a good option, and I'm the one who suggested it! ... I think. Adds damage on top of damage which is too heavy handed.

3) Damage equivalent to PC level is taken. A middle-ground option between 2) and 4) for those DMs who want some kind of hp reduction.

4) A cumulative penalty to attack and damage rolls to represent the life drains as fatigue/exhaustion. An option that allows for something to happen without players being hit too hard by an effect.

5) An old-school "negative" healing surges option. The most deadly of the suggestions but one that brings back some of the traditional dangers associated with certain undead.

So I'm thinking that, at this point, we can pretty much leave the discussion there and let people choose their poison, unless more options arise that are different from the above.

I don't want to close the discussion off but it's clear that people feel pretty strongly about certain options and, ultimately, the choice is dependent on the group, the DM and how well the various choices fit into the flavour of the overall campaign.

I agree. I just wanted to point out that you didn't list one option.

6) Death. If your character is at 0 healing surges and gets drained again they die. This is the ultimate, hard-core option and the one that is the most like the AD&D level drain.

Otherwise, I agree: Leave it up to the DM and my own opinion is that the first step is to toss out the assumption that the answer will be the same for every means by which the players can lose a healing surge. Perhaps the answer varies depending on how/why the players are losing that surge.

Just don't make it a 'gotcha' moment: If you use one of the more deadly options they should know it's a possibility before it gets that far.

Carl

 

[ValhallaGH]

Carl

Excellent recovery. Thank you for shifting back to where the discussion should be.

 

[James McMurray]

There's also

7) Don't change anything. Have creatures that drain healing surges fight in environments where healing surge loss matters. You maintain the danger without the need for house rules.

I don't know if it's been suggested yet, but if you do change the way healing surge drain works, you should probably either bump the level of the monsters, lower their stats, or give extra experience for them. Their numbers are based on the idea that 0 healing surges is bad, but doesn't trigger new effects for the attacker.

 

[elecgraystone]

7) Don't change anything. Have creatures that drain healing surges fight in environments where healing surge loss matters. You maintain the danger without the need for house rules.

I like #7.

I don't know if it's been suggested yet, but if you do change the way healing surge drain works, you should probably either bump the level of the monsters, lower their stats, or give extra experience for them. Their numbers are based on the idea that 0 healing surges is bad, but doesn't trigger new effects for the attacker.

Yep, I agree. The surge draining creature should be nerfed and/or the experience it gives should be raised. If used as-is with #2 though #6, the players have a much tougher fight than the numbers would suggest.

 

[cmbarona]

I like #7 too, but I'm confused as to how it's different from #1, which I also like.

 

[Rafe]

6) Death. If your character is at 0 healing surges and gets drained again they die. This is the ultimate, hard-core option and the one that is the most like the AD&D level drain.

Sorry, that's my 5). I'll edit it to specifically say "results in death."

There's also

7) Don't change anything. Have creatures that drain healing surges fight in environments where healing surge loss matters. You maintain the danger without the need for house rules.

True. I'll adjust option 1) to include clever use of environment.

I like #7 too, but I'm confused as to how it's different from #1, which I also like.

It isn't different. It's just a good way to capitalize on suspense and intensity by coupling healing surge loss creatures with environments that can 'drain' healing surges. Even if the creatures do no further damage in terms of draining healing surges from those with none, the environment (extreme heat or cold) can add penalties.

 

[elecgraystone]

I like #7 too, but I'm confused as to how it's different from #1, which I also like.

It was pointing out that if you want to make draining monsters tougher, you can make the encounter tougher for someone without surges and you don't need to alter how the rules work. It is a LITTLE different than just use them as is. You can make an encounter JUST as deadly as some of the other options, just within the rules and you already have everything balanced and ready for EXP.

 

[Rafe]

(need this deleted. somehow I double posted...)