Help me beat my DM :)

[Zappo]

Actually with a contingency the Dragon can use a greater dispelling geared against the time stop caster or just use the contingency-teleport chain.

Ok... the dragon has prepared a contingency exactly against the tactic I'm suggesting, which could be called metagaming. But since TS is possibly the most broken spell in existance save Harm, it could also be called fairly reasonable. So, the cleric opens with a Quickened Haste (from a scroll; he's got the Magic and Trickery domains). Standard action, M's Disjunction. No more contingencies. Extra partial action, Time Stop. Third and subsequent actions, a dozen Harms (to make sure one will beat SR) and something to do damage. This tactic defeats any contingency, unless the dragon sets a contingency against Haste or Disjunction - which would be 100% metagaming, no excuses here.

What I would do, is talk with the DM for a couple of days about this tactic and how I'm going to use it against the dragon.

Then, I'd show up with a wizard, Telekinesis, and a carriage full of crossbow bolts (GMWed to +5 via wand of course - we don't want DR to get in the way, do we?). At 18th, I can throw 4500 of them, and 1 on 20 will even hit, dealing enough damage to blow up the Death Star.

 

[Vuron]

Dear god didn't telekinesis get errata'ed yet?

Anyway it seems obvious that to have even a remote chance, and I'm talking remote chance that the sorceror/wizard would have to metagame like crazy too, which really kinda defeats the purpose. Beyond that this has pretty much descended into a discussion of which spells are hideously overpowered or ambigious to the point of nonsensical.

Pretty much the only point of this thread anymore is to point out which spell combos make combat pretty much about winning init which let's be honest is pretty unappealing roleplaying.

 

[Berk]

Dragon casts antimagic field and proceeds to rip and tear you a new one. =o)

 

[Victim]

Even a triple enlarged antimagic field wouldn't fully protect the dragon.

 

[Berk]

Even a triple enlarged antimagic field wouldn't fully protect the dragon.

Good thing it's an emination and it eminates from the dragon itself, hence covering it all and 10' beyond the dragon. =o)

 

[Victim]

No it doesn't.

 

[greymarch]

Re: stuff that didn't make the cut

Feats: Extend Spell, Impr. Ini. Leadership
Maximize Spell, Still Spell, Spell Focus (Evocation, Necromancy, Transmutation)
Spell Penetration


Leadership? Why would you want that against a dragon? Drop it.

I think an 18th level arcance spellcaster will give you the best chance to beat any MM dragon. Take several levels of Archmage (from the FR), and several levels of Red Wizard of Thay (also FR.) Those two classes, along with Spell Penetration, and Greater Spell Penetration, will allow you to get past the dragon's SR.

Next, make sure you have improved initiative, and a high dexterity, because you MUST win initiative to win this combat. You might want to contingecy the Skittish Nerves spell from the Magic of Faerun book. This spell will add +5 to your initiative. This combat cannot possibly last longer than one round.

Take the quicken spell feat, and make sure you quicken a haste. When you win initiative, cast your quickened haste, and you will be able to cast two spells in the first round. With your partial action from the haste, cast time stop! With your 2 to 5 rounds of time stop, cast lots of horrid wilitings. The dragon will make his save, but who cares!?! Because of your haste, you are now casting two spells a round, and you have at least 2 to 5 rounds of free spells to drop on the dragon.

After the first time stop ends, it is still your turn because you only used the partial action from the initial haste. You still have your full-round action available. Cast another time stop! Woohoo! 2 to 5 more rounds of spells to drop on the dragon. You are probably out of horrid wiltings now, so this time cast delayed blast fireball, but change the fireball to a sonic ball. Remember I recommended being an Archmage from FR? Archmages can change their elemental spells into any kind of element they want. It is extremely unlikely that the dragon will be immune to sonic damage.

So, to sum up...two time stops in one round, with the ability to cast two spells during each round the time-stops provide = dead dragon. On average, you should get 7 rounds from the time stops, and you can cast two spells during each of those rounds. That means you can cast 14 spells on the dragon before it's turn! Muahahaha!

The archmage, Red Wizard of Thay, and spell penetration feats will guarantee that your spells beat the dragon's SR. The ability to change your elemental spells into any element will also help guarantee victory. The dragon might have prot versus elements(sonic) on it before the combat, so you just change the rest of your spells to acid damage, or some other type that works.

You can get some good tips for winning this combat from this particular messageboard, but you will get even better results if you ask this same question at the Min/Max boards on the official WOTC messageboards. Here is the link:

http://boards.wizards.com/community-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum&f=271

Good luck!

 

[Storminator]

Re: Re: stuff that didn't make the cut

Leadership? Why would you want that against a dragon? Drop it.

I think an 18th level arcance spellcaster will give you the best chance to beat any MM dragon. Take several levels of Archmage (from the FR), and several levels of Red Wizard of Thay (also FR.) Those two classes, along with Spell Penetration, and Greater Spell Penetration, will allow you to get past the dragon's SR.
<SNIP>

Core books only. And he took Leadership to add a bitchin cohort to the mix.

PS

 

[Storminator]

Good thing it's an emination and it eminates from the dragon itself, hence covering it all and 10' beyond the dragon. =o)

AMF specifically states that if you are larger than it, part of you sticks out. That definitely applies here. In fact, my personal favorite dragon tactic is based on it. Cast AMF on the claw of the dragon, then anything in the claw is in the field, and the dragon can still cast spells and use spell like abilities.

Others have been known to disagree with my interpretation of the spell, but not enough to convince me this doesn't work.

PS

 

[kkoie]

Originally posted by Jeremy
Well let's see you could go with the Fleet Runner of Ehlonna smack which actually already has an 18th level variety figured out for 2640 damage (which would kill Tiamat in round 1).

Or Mr. Ginsu could hack the dragon's head off, what? Average 3 times in the first round?

Or 2500 points of damage off the second Iaijutsu Smackdown...

Or the polymorphed 4 armed archer smackdown for 1384 points of damage.

Or if you don't mind being evil you could try 4-6 thousand points of damage off the akutenshi smack.

Or you could go with the priest of mystra with the 43+spell level DC's and then target the dragon's reflex or will saves with heightened DC 52 saves. (Also beating a great gold's SR on a 6 or better.)

Or you could use my psychic warrior/deepwood sniper smack for up to 390 points of damage PER ARROW. That's 2 shots to kill a great gold btw.

'o Skoteinos gets his arcane DC's up to 57 with his red wizard/shadow adept/archmage build, you could purposefully go after a dragon's best save and still nail them with that.

Well, anyways, suffice it to say, there are plenty of things in there that can make a 660 hp dragon seem like a small fry. And there are also plenty of things in there that a non-vanilla MM dragon could use himself.

So who wins init?

I dunno, maybe I should don my flame-retardent underwear for posting this, but I cannot resist.

Am I the only one who's gut reaction is that Jeremy's list is complete and utter cheeze? What is even the point of coming up with these smackdown's in the first place? Surely he doesn't use them in his gaming sessions. The campaign would get boring really fast:

Player: So who do we get to kill today?

DM: *yawm* well I have 2 red dragons, each with 40 levels in assorted classes and prestige classes, and I have a balor who is a 20th level samurai and a 10th level iajutsu master.

Player: ok, lets roll.

DM: right.

90 minutes of constant die rolling later.

Player: well that was fun, got anything else?

DM: no, I think I'm tired of DMing, it's your turn next week.