Help me beat my DM :)

[Sanackranib]

yawn

you still havnt come up with any kind of plan on how you are going to even get close to the dragon so that you can metagame this whole nonsense encounter. with the dragons heightened sences and improved vision, I don't see how you can just assume that you are going to sneak up on it and beat it on initiative, so that you can procede to cast evey broken spell you can find - to prove . . . .what? that the spells are broken? and you can metagame. what exactly does that prove? as a DM I would never allow 1/2 of the tactics proposed here, and I would make sure that either official erratta was used on these spells or that the game balance was restored to them. otherwise there is no point rolling past initiative.

 

[Jeremy]

I dunno, maybe I should don my flame-retardent underwear for posting this, but I cannot resist.

Am I the only one who's gut reaction is that Jeremy's list is complete and utter cheeze? What is even the point of coming up with these smackdown's in the first place? Surely he doesn't use them in his gaming sessions. The campaign would get boring really fast.

LOL

Check out the thread. It's an excercise in creativity, imagination, and complexity. They aren't meant for play (though the original idea for them came from an existing character).

They are based on the premise of doing 200+ points of damage in a single round. Sometimes they spend immense amounts of money on one-shot items to accomplish it, but it's all in fun.

There is a big difference between a high power high level game and a smackdown game. One retains players, the other doesn't.

 

[kkoie]

LOL

Check out the thread. It's an excercise in creativity, imagination, and complexity. They aren't meant for play (though the original idea for them came from an existing character).

...

Well ok, I can understand creating the ideas in theory, just to joke around. But I am not capable of comprehending why anyone would ever consider using the tactic, whether in a campaign, a one shot, or even a single encounter, like this thread is refering too. To use one of those tactics is completely unrealistic, even if you are testing whether or not an 18th level character can take a dragon, because it is an example of a scenario totally outside the norm.

When one is conducting a test or survey, you sometimes get examples that are so odd and nuts, they are almost like random mutations. Thats why you survey or test a multiple number of examples so these mutations are factored out of the equation, by the fact that they are singular and rarely encountered.

To use an ultimate smackdown technique in a battle like this one would prove nothing. The point is if an 18th level character can take on a dragon one on one. If you use a smackdown technique, all that would prove is that under very specific circumstances, using very specific tactics, it's possible one might be able to pull it off. But considering how odd and abnormal the circumstances would be, it would not adequately answer the question of if an 18th level character could kill a dragon one on one.

Now that I think about it, if the player and DM really want to test their theory, then the player should create a set of characters of differing classes. Then he and the DM ought to sit down and try each of them out individually, and see how each one does. And then compare the results. I'd bet the results would be interesting, comparing how say, the wizard or sorcerer does, compared to the Fighter or Paladin, etc etc.

 

[Sanackranib]

test results

I think the results would all be pretty much the same. If the pc won initiative he would do some damage (provided he overcame dr, sr, ac and or saveing throw then the dragon would attack and the pc would die.

 

[Zappo]

Guys, the point is: how to make an 18th level PC that can have a reasonable chance of killing a Gold Great Wyrm. Ok? It's not about making an interesting character, it's not about having a fun session, it's not about seeing if any 18th level character can do it, and it's not even about proving that the spells are broken, though that is an interesting side-effect. It's a challenge, a bet. That's the fun of it. If I wanted to talk about interesting characters, or realistic contexts for the match, or fun, I'd be (and in fact I am, too) in other threads. Of course all the tactics you've seen mentioned are ultra-cheesy, how else is a character supposed to have a chance to win?!?

It irks me that there are spells which allow a character to win an encounter 10 ELs above his level, and disposable dragons bother me as much as anyone else, but just denying that it is possible, or altering the terms of the bet so that the dragon has all the possible advantages (ie, is in his lair, has to be sought out, has minions, etc.), or assuming that the dragon knows everything about the PC days in advance just isn't the point.

As things stand now, I am sad to say it but if the Harm + Haste + Time Stop cleric won initiative (which he can get much higher than the dragon), he would almost certainly kill the dragon.

 

[Nail]

Wow.

I'm just not sure where to begin here. Let's try this: Guys, take a break. Relax. Sit back an' crack open a cold one. Y'all are taking this anti-meta-gaming schtick just a little too seriously.

Here's what I'm talkin' about:

I refuse to even acknowledge Cohort chains as 1) it clearly bends the intent and spirit of the rules 2) it clearly makes it something other than a strict one on one battle.

"Refuse to even acknowledge", eh? Nice one.

As for the rest:

• 
  1) Of course it bends the spirit of the rules. That's part of the fun. You'll note, however, that it doesn't break any of them. Cool, huh?
  2) There's nothing "clear" about it. Gating a solar also "makes it something other than a one on one battle". Heck, Summon Monster I does that too. Feh.
  3) Yup, th' dragon could use these tactics too. The question really becomes: will th' DM think of it too? (BTW, there's a good tactic to use should this come up.)

Anyway it seems obvious that to have even a remote chance, and I'm talking remote chance that the sorceror/wizard would have to metagame like crazy too, which really kinda defeats the purpose.

You, too, seem to have missed th' point. And you may need to re-think your own definition of 'metagaming".

BTW, it's been pointed out by at least one of the designers of 3e that the CRs of dragons was purposely set too low, because PCs are likely to be more prepared for a dragon when they meet one. In simpler terms: the designers expect metagaming (your definition, not mine) when fighting dragons.

Originally posted by kkoie
Well ok, I can understand creating the ideas in theory, just to joke around. But I am not capable of comprehending why anyone would ever consider using the tactic, whether in a campaign, a one shot, or even a single encounter, like this thread is refering too. To use one of those tactics is completely unrealistic, even if you are testing whether or not an 18th level character can take a dragon, because it is an example of a scenario totally outside the norm.

Again: take a deep breath, buddy. Yer hyperventilating.

"Unrealistic"? Which part, exactly, is realistic when fighting a dragon? You have dragons in your neighborhood, kid? (Lucky sop.)

Take my advice: Go over to th' blackboard and write out "I play D&D for fun." 50 times. By the end you'll feel much better. ...or at least I will.

 

[Nail]

Re: test results

I think the results would all be pretty much the same. If the pc won initiative he would do some damage (provided he overcame dr, sr, ac and or saveing throw then the dragon would attack and the pc would die.

Have you been reading the responses to this thread? We've already dispproved your assertion. The PC could win, and win handily.

 

[Vuron]

I think when people bring up realistic they generally mean "adheres to the accepted reality of the genre". For example it is generally accepted in the action genre that having the heroes run out of ammo except in dramatically appropriate instances is poor. However it is also considered poor taste for the hero to use a sniper rifle to kill the primary villian at great distance. Not very sporting although certainly realistic.

So I think what most people protest is that master villians which Great Wyrms should rightfully be should not be easily disposed of by single characters a fraction of thier might. In my mind having all encounters pretty much be decided by the vagaries of the initiative roll is pretty silly.

What I think is often missed in these "excercises" is that inevitably haste, time stop, harm, gate come up every time. Who is ever going to cast meteor swarm unless they are wanting to slaughter a goblin tribe when you can gate in a solar, etc.

Basically what I'm saying and I think others are saying is that gameplay really suffers with some of these combos. I believe that certain spells etc need to be revised or dropped in the interest of playability in much the same manner that WotC consistently ruled against game breaking combos in thier Magic card game...

 

[Nail]

It irks me that there are spells which allow a character to win an encounter 10 ELs above his level, and disposable dragons bother me as much as anyone else....

Amen, brother.

And as you go on to say, "that's not the point". Couldn't agree more. In fact, I'd bet that any RPG we came up with would have "broken" bits. Even after the upcoming 3e revision, there will be broken bits. Count on it. Even....savor th' prospect??!!!


(EDIT:Mucho Typos! Arrrrrrr!!!)

 

[Despaxas]

Okeeeeeee, just a quick reminder and disclaimer:

I am NOT talking about a normal character which will be running around a normal game. This is a one-shot character, all in good-fun just to see if an 18th level character can kill a dragon.
Neutral environment (in fact we haven't even talked about the whole thing except that it will be an 18th level character and a dragon). So It's just a test.

Disclaimer: I will never ever use these killer combos or what have you in a REAL game, it's just silly. Silly but FUN, ppl remember the game is about fun?

So all relax and help me make one instead of everybody yelling at me that it can't or shouldn't be done. But I am pleased to see this thread going on 4 pages So thanks for all the responses, now get cracking, I am.

Still not sure about magical items. I think I'm going for the sorcerer 17/paladin 1 combo. For insane saves and Timestop/Gates. I also need some ideas for spells that will prevent the dragon from ripping me to pieces after the Time-stop ends and before my army of solars will kill it.