Help Me Convice Someone D&D Isn't Evil

[Emiricol]

Re: Gaming Female's PoV

Vey well put. Not sure I agree 100%, but I like it anyway

As the lone female in my gaming group for almsot 10 years, who is now married to another gamer (vagabonddm), I'd like to throw my 2 cents in as well.
Vagabond and I have 3 children, with a 4th on the way. Our oldest son and daughter love RPG's.. they are 7 and 4. With gaming we've found a way to enhance creativity and imagination while encouraging them to read.
Neither my husband nor myself are recluses. We are both well respected and well-liked at work. A far cry from the shy kid I was in jr high.
Gamers seem to have a better view of themselves in the sense of "i'm different, okay and?" Instead of islating themselves because they feel different, they isolate themselve because they realize that a lot of people they deal with are idiots. Law of the land anymore.

My high school would have adored this post's starter. And I went to a college prep high school who had a strong emphasis on religion. However, they never seemed to let what a person's religion was interfere with *who* that person was.

I would gain parental assistance and check into the laws that have been mentioned. Also compile some evidence on adults who are in high places now, who used to game. Many high-school gamers grow up to be extremely sucessful people. Maybe it's because we excelled at those 3 am, caffiene-induced, "I'm going to beat this thing or else" sessions that we have. Perhaps its because we have to be creative in figuring out how to get by the dragon who thinks that we elves would make decent toothpicks. Or perhaps it's because we accept those that are different instead of trying to shame it into disappearing. Whatever it is, gaming creaties diversity, which is something to be appreciated, not quashed. And that's something *any* adult in the school system should be made to appreciate, even if the parents and their children together need to bring it forward at a school board meeting to make sure it isn't missed.

A pregnant gamer mom's two cents.

 

[Trevalon Moonleirion]

Because I'm very tired of my AP's nonsense... it's about time more people stood up to her. It's a challenge that I don't mind taking on really.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

With a hardcore witch like this I can only suggest one worthwhile solution.

Go over her head. Talking to her is a waste of time. She must have someone with a brain that she reports to that can slap some reality into her.

I'm coming to you my fellow ENWorlders, in desperation. I normally don't really care what people think of our hobby--what they want to think is their own business--but when people start pushing their opinions down my throat, I get pissed off. I'll start from the beginning, though, to explain my plight.

My friend Ed (Fayredeth here on the boards) and I have been talking about starting up a gaming club at our high school for a while now. This year, we finally got our act together and tried to get something in motion. Amazingly, we really had no trouble getting our bitch of an assisstant principal to approve the club. We should have known there was trouble to be found. All the horrid woman wanted from us was a proposed time and meeting place, along with what games we planned to play. We put very typical games on there: chess, backgammon, risk, boggle, scrabble etc. In the middle of the list, we slipped in D&D...because that's the whole reason Ed and I decided to start the club. I slipped it into the middle because we were afraid that our wonderful AP would start shoving religion down our throats (she and her family are rather notorious for being rather forceful christians). We thought we'd give it a shot anyway--after all we got the club started in the first place!

Several days later (which is rather fast for this woman) our sponsor got a reply back--and a rather rude one at that... she has told our AP that she hates the nickname "Nan" (her name is Nanette), yet she still insists on calling our poor sponsor this. She said that all of the games were fine... EXCEPT D&D. She had apparently read some "research" saying that "the game resulted in some negative outcomes." My friends and I were outraged. What true scientific research has actually been done on D&D?! To the best of my knowledge, it's mostly very strongly biased espousings of hardcore christians and other religous groups...but in any event I want to see this research she casually mentions. The thing that really gets us is that in various curricula throughout the school, Harry Potter and The Hobbit are taught in the classroom! How can D&D be ANY different from those?!

I responded in a memo to her, very casually, and very diplomatically inquiring to see the "reasearch" she spoke of, stating what I know of D&D "research" politely, and pointing out Harry Potter was being taught in school.

So my friends...what the hell am I going to do?! This woman is notoriously impossible to get into touch with, and when you can talk to her, she is rude, condescending, arrogant, and makes up rules that only serve to rally students against her. (Case in point, announcing THE WEEK BEFORE HOMECOMING that there were severe dress code restrictions--no strapless dresses, etc. etc. and so forth. This is ONE week before Homecoming... don't you think most people have their dresses by then? She pulled the exact same crap last year at prom as well!) Teachers can't stand this woman, and I certainly can't either.

What are your suggestions? What would you do in my place? What have you done in a similar circumstance? Is there any dependable evidence that D&D is good or bad for you?

Thanks!

 

[mythago]

I just dont believe in fighting windmills if you don't have to.

Ah, but that's the beauty of the situation. SHE is the one tilting at windmills. Her only alternative to permitting the club as proposed is to ban all extracurricular clubs. Care to guess what the parental reaction would be to that?

 

[NoOneofConsequence]

Something else just occured to me that might be worth considering. I appreciate that this issue is important, but consider any of your actions from the AP's point of view. If you keep this in-house (don't pull a first ammendment/ACLU on her) then you don't threaten her personally.

However, as soon as you go outside to a third party you put her job and her career in jeopardy. Absolutely no one on the face of the planet wants to have their career messed with! She will fight, for sure. Moreover, she may fight in extremely unethical ways. Assistant Principals have wide ranging powers in their schools. She can mess with you without breaking the rules - that would suck for sure.

Moreover - do you have any ideas what sort of connections she has with the wider community? Can she mess with your future job prospects? Your college entrance? I've known lots of educators with this kind of power and influence. If you threaten her job - by going to the school board, ACLU etc - you might win this fight but you may make an enemy who has the power to do you long term harm. Yes, it would be petty, but your description of this woman makes me think that she could very well respond in very petty ways if you threaten her directly.

I'm not saying that you should roll over and take it, but consider before you blow this thing up - as a teenager your support networks are unlikely to be as powerful as an Assistant Principals and the ensuing battle damage may not be worth the point you're trying to make.

Just another 2c

 

[Bagpuss]

Point of fact: the Supreme Court ruled in 1988 that the 1st Amendment does not apply to high school newspapers--see Hazelwood school district v. Kuhlmeier. High school principals have the right to review and censor student-written materials. I should know; a column I wrote as assistant editor of my paper was censored. (I had the gall to write about racism.)

See here for the full text of the decision.

That text doesn't give them the legal right to censor any and all things on campus. From that text...

The school newspaper here cannot be characterized as a forum for public expression. School facilities may be deemed to be public forums [484 U.S. 260, 261] only if school authorities have by policy or by practice opened the facilities for indiscriminate use by the general public, or by some segment of the public, such as student organizations. If the facilities have instead been reserved for other intended purposes, communicative or otherwise, then no public forum has been created, and school officials may impose reasonable restrictions on the speech of students, teachers, and other members of the school community.

They can censor the school paper, but other stuff maybe okay especially if the area is by policy or practice a public forum, if for example other student organisations or members of the public use it. Even the paper and other "school sponsered expressive activities" (I guess this would include things like the football team, etc.") can only be censored if they have "reasonably related to legitimate pedagogical concerns" (see below), now the AP's "research" could count as a legitmate pedagogical (a fancy word for teaching really) concerns, but...

a) If its a "public forum" (see above) then the 1st Amendment still applies anyway.
b) You could always argue the concerns aren't legitimate, depending on what the research is.

(c) The standard for determining when a school may punish student expression that happens to occur on school premises is not the standard for determining when a school may refuse to lend its name and resources to the dissemination of student expression. Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School Dist., 393 U.S. 503 , distinguished. Educators do not offend the First Amendment by exercising editorial control over the style and content of student speech in school-sponsored expressive activities so long as their actions are reasonably related to legitimate pedagogical concerns. Pp. 270-273.

 

[robaustin]

Ok - let me just point out something now Trevalon. Please examine your REASONS for challenging her. You have repeatedly pointed out her OTHER things you see as issues as well, and you now want to take her on. When asked:

"How about a room at the library. I am sure you could find a place outside of school that you would not have these problems. I just dont believe in fighting windmills if you don't have to."

You said:

"Because I'm very tired of my AP's nonsense... it's about time more people stood up to her. It's a challenge that I don't mind taking on really."

So what you're inferring here is that you are tired of all the things she does to the student body and as such since you now have an issue to challenge her on - you're going to do so. I think I am pretty on target here....

I know you want to have the gaming club and be able to play D&D at school. But you are taking it one step further here. You admitted freely you wanted to stand up for her for the sake of standing up to her, not necessarily just for the sake of having a gaming club. You're making it a personal "you versus her" issue and this is a very BAD thing.

Your ultimate goal out of that is that she will look bad, and you will undermine her authority as AP. You freely admit that by your statement that "it's about time more people stood up to her."

Let me say that I'm with you - as long as you are doing this STRICTLY to play D&D, and not to stand up to her for the sake of doing so. Ultimately - if it's for the sake of challenging her - you're going to lose. Not because she doesn't want to let you play, but because she will not let you undermine her authority.

You're treading on thin ice there. Why step on the cracks? Play at home, play at the gaming store, play at the library. WHy the need to play in the 7 hours you are at school?

--*Rob

PS - as Cartman said "RESPECT my AUTHORITAY!"

 

[Mercule]

Okay, just a couple of things that other people have said or that I think are of note:

Make sure you have a _clear_ goal and grievance. By this, I mean don't go gunning for the AP's head just because she's objectionable. If you want to start a D&D club, then _that_ is your goal and don't go after her. If you think she, herself, is objectionable and should be remove, then that is your goal (but leave D&D out of it).

Whatever you're going for, it will be best served by keeping it pure and simple and unmuddied by a vandetta. I'd _strongly_ recommend writing down what you would consider terms of victory. Now, see if you can shorten what you've written. Here's a hint: drop anything that will naturally flow out of any other listed goal. See if you can get it down to one succinct sentance.

You might even tape it to the inside of your locker so that you don't lose sight of what you want to do.

Enlist aid. Get parents involved. Get teachers involved. Accept that those who offer aid are genuinely trying to help. Listen to them and take their counsil. You may have more passion in this matter, but they have more experience in dealing with things. Share your "victory conditions" with them. Let them know exactly what you are going for. Don't do anything without talking to someone else (it adds perspective).

You are going to get some of your best adult support by posting a sign in a gaming store requesting help.

Remember, you are not losing control by seeking counsil. You are gaining power, knowledge, and insight.

Avoid even the appearance of inpropriety. Don't _ever_ call the AP a name. _Ever_. Not even in private. Not even in your head (sometimes people forget what was said silently and what was said aloud). _Always_ treat her respectfully. _Never_ raise your voice to her. Do this even if you decide your goal is to get her fired.

If you need to object to something she does, object to the action or to her decision, not to her. Don't say that anything she does is "stupid".

If you are serious about this, I _strongly_ recommend you read "How to Win Friends and Influence People" by Dale Carnegie. I'm as much a fan of pointless arguing on the Internet as anyone (maybe moreso, even), but if you really want to accomplish something, this is _the_ book on how to conduct yourself.

Understand the scope of your opposition. You may be facing more than your AP. Know how big of a battle you're willing to fight.

Also, don't think you are fighting all Christians or all fundimentalist Christians. My gaming group consists of two Lutherans, a Presberterian, an Epicopalian, a Baptist, and a Catholic. All are very religious and most are active in their church.

What you're facing is someone who is being closed-minded and narrow. She may be on a power trip. She may simply be ignorant and trying her best. Who knows? Regardless, keep your comments in line with the scope of what you're dealing with. I know that as a strong Christian, I get as annoyed with people who bash Christianity as with people who bash gaming and that doesn't make me want to help them.

The same could be said for administrators. You aren't fighting everyone in power. Just this woman. If you insult "the school" or "adults" or whatnot, you are going to lose support. Do not alienate anyone.

Be informed. Follow some of the links the others have posted. Read the information there -- both pro and con. If you can, find information that directly refutes or post-dates (a study done later) the information that is opposed to your position. Another tack to take is to show why a piece of information doesn't apply ("Yes, I understand that says D&D is an unChristian activity, but since this is a state-run agency, you may not require me to be a Christian under the First Amendment anti-establishment clause." Citing a court case really helps.).

Put your arguments in writing. Don't go overboard (oxboxes are great for debate club, but bad for daily life), but have some basic arguments written up, supported by evidence, should you be asked to submit anything. This is even great for getting people's attention if they don't have time to talk to you immediately ("Well, then, please just read this and consider what I'm saying.").

If your school has a debate club, talk to the teacher associated with it. My experience has been that these are some of the most approachable and open-minded people. If you're not comfortable talking to the teacher, talk to some of the upper-classmen debaters. Trust me, they aren't that intimitating. Most of them would probably help you just on the hope that you'd get interested in debate. As an added bonus, it seems a disproportionate number of debaters have lawyers as parents.

Hope that helps you. I know my advice is a lot of work, but if you really want to go for this and do it right, that's what it's going to take. If you do this, it'll almost certainly be the most valuable skill you develope in the entirety of high school.

 

[Rel]

I have a slightly different take on this whole thing. I'm going to leave aside the issue of whether you have a right to include D&D in your gaming club and focus on whether it is a good idea from a gaming perspective.

Consider for a moment the sheer number of threads where a member of a gaming group talks about a "troublesome" player who causes a certain disruption to the group. A very common (and in my opinion, perfectly valid) response is, "boot the guy or leave the group". But if you are playing under the school-sponsored auspices of the Gaming Club, do you have that option? I don't know the answer, but I think it is a valid question.

It seems you could especially encounter problems if the player is not being abusive to the other players or acting completely disruptive, but instead just has a play style that you find annoying or that isn't compatible with the rest of the group. Do you just have to live with it no matter how annoying it makes your game? Can you exclude that player without running afoul of the club's sponsor or the administration?

See, I like for my hobbies to be as enjoyable as possible and this means participating in them with people who will enhance the experience, or at least not detract from it. For example, I scuba dive. I've been on plenty of dive trips where there were people along who behaved in a manner that detracted from the experience, from the guy who just couldn't stop bragging endlessly about his expensive new gear to some people who were just dangerous (especially to themselves). So, as much as is practicable, I now try to dive on charters where only my family and friends are with me (most of them aren't too annoying ).

I think my point is obvious so I'll just conclude by saying that if I were in your shoes, I'd take what I'd already been granted and run with the Gaming Club. Play some Risk or Axis and Allies or Magic Cards or whatever. Feel free to discuss D&D while you are there and use the club as a way of finding and screening potential new players. Then arrange to play somewhere else, be it your home or the library or wherever. And if one of the new recruits turns out to be incompatible with the group, you can ask them to leave without suffering any administrative entanglements.

I applaud your willingness to "take on the system" and everything and I think that the AP is operating from bad information if not being out and out unreasonable. But I would hate for you to struggle so long and hard only to wind up with a club that pressures you to game with people who you'd prefer not to. Good luck in whatever you decide.

 

[Utrecht]

Tevalon,

Take a look at Mercule's advice - he very eloquently stated what I was attempting to. There are good ways to win arguments and there are bad ways.

When I was in High School I too had a very much an us versus them attitude - after all the man is trying to keep all of us down. However, after bashing my head against the wall in my pig-headed attempts at changing the system I learned a couple of things - and that people do not like being defied.

However *most* people do not mind having a civil discussion as to why a decsion is made.

Again, having a spouse who is an administrator - and actually talking with some of those that I dispised in High School - I was reminded that EVERY story has two sides. Now. if this AP is as narrow-minded as you have portrayed her - I am sure she will not be an AP for very much longer - the system corrects itself. However, what I am suspecting is that you are frustrated at some of her decisions - because they are in conflict with what you would have done and are reading to much into her statements.

After all, it would be pretty silly to get yourself all worked up about this - then sit down with her and ask her why - and she actually listens - give the woman a chance to do here job and in *most* cases you will get what you want.

But again, listen to what mercule has written - it is very good LIFE advice - it will server you above and beyond what happens in this situation.

edited for grammar

edited for grammar