Help me create a Deulist, please!

[boxstop7]

Okay, so due to some poor decisions by the party and a serious inter-party conflict of interest, party members will end up fighting one another next session (this coming Saturday). To the DM's credit, he's played everything out as it really should have been, but it still means that my character will likely die in the battle, as I fear he's severely overmatched. This upsets me for a number of reasons, but it's still the harsh reality that I'm basically outnumbered, overpowered and cornered. While I *might* actually make it out alive, it's been made clear that the odds are slim at best. So, my question for all of you is this: will you help me create the most badass deulist possible? The game consists of several powergamers, so the more maxed out he is, the better. I have no preference regarding race, but I definitely want to take the Deulist PrC. Here's what I'm starting with:

Stats: 15, 12, 17, 17, 16, 16

11th level, starting with 66,000 gp.

Feats/weapons/items from splatbooks and other sources are allowable, so long as they're cleared by the DM.

Thanks a million to anyone who actually undertakes this task!

~ Jason

 

[Dark Jezter]

"Badass duelist"?

Isn't that an oxymoron?

 

[Magius del Cotto]

If you have a way of boosting up the character's int, then I'd suggest an Unfettered (from Unearthed Arcana) character for this. A couple of reasons why:

1) Full BAB progression: You'll be able to hit most things that you come up against.
2) Flexible skill list: You'll likely want a character that can take control of the battlefield, so you'll want things like Bluff, Balance, and Tumble. This class gives these to you, along with others that some duelists would like.
3) Sneak Attack damage: Not as much as the rogue, but still enough to be noticeable. I think 2-3d6 of sneak attack damage, when combined with your bluff, makes your opponent feel it when he's hit.
4) Free Dodge bonus to AC: In addition to your Dex, this class allows you to add a number (based on your level) to AC. At level 11, that would be +4.
5) Up to half level to AC against 1 opponent: This is why you want to boost up your INT. Every other level, you can add 1 more AC against a single opponent, meaning that if you have a +5 Int bonus, you have a +5 AC bonus.

Not to say that this isn't the only way to get such a character, but I think that this is the simplest method to get there. At your level (assuming base Chain Shirt), you'd have an AC of 18, 22 against a single opponent (18 in Int). A devanian chain shirt would be a good boost: though it doesn't add anything to the AC, it does drop the penalty from your skill checks, something quick important when you'll be tumbling around as much as you probably will.
That's just my advice, though. Take it as you will.
Magius out.

 

[Tessarael]

I second Magius del Cotto's suggestion. Duelist will have poor AC compared to a sword-and-shield + armor guy, and will not do any more damage. Unfettered is the best lightly armored combatant class that I've seen, and it's fairly well balanced in my opinion.

Mix in some Barbarian levels if you can, if you want to Rage for the extra HP and damage. Though it depends how many rounds you're expecting the battle to last and what your aim is. Are you aiming to survive, or to take down some other characters on the way?

Monk/Duelist is a good way to get excessive AC when wearing no armor. The only other time I might take Duelist is with a swashbuckling Wizard to get the AC bonus. And then think about Polymorphing and otherwise buffing. I'm not that familiar with the appropriate spells/buff route along these lines, but I think it's fairly good ... assuming you have the opportunity to buff.

Other silliness: take the Leadership feat, get a Wizard cohort and have the rest of your low level guys be archers/melee guys. Give the Wizard a Wand of Fireballs or Scrolls of Fireball with your money ...

Serious suggestion: talk the other players out of fighting.

 

[boxstop7]

"Badass duelist"?

Isn't that an oxymoron?

Maybe it is.

I guess the problem is that I'm WAY more into playing characters that are cool, fun and interesting. However, two or three of the other players in the group are nothing but HARDCORE powergamers, and my characters become effectively obsolete (or dead) because the DM has to adjust to throw things at us that challenge the powergamers. I don't powergame, so this concept and process is alien to me. So, I suppose my real request would be this: Help me create a powergamed Deulist worthy to stand beside other powergamed fighters and mages and such.

Magius: thanks! I'll look into the class and see what the DM thinks...

~Jason

 

[Dark Jezter]

I guess the problem is that I'm WAY more into playing characters that are cool, fun and interesting. However, two or three of the other players in the group are nothing but HARDCORE powergamers, and my characters become effectively obsolete (or dead) because the DM has to adjust to throw things at us that challenge the powergamers. I don't powergame, so this concept and process is alien to me. So, I suppose my real request would be this: Help me create a powergamed Deulist worthy to stand beside other powergamed fighters and mages and such.

Well, the thing is that a duelist, even an extremely twinked-out one, won't be able to hold a candle to a powergamed fighter. The duelist is a fun class if you're a fan of movies like The Princess Bride and The Mask of Zorro, but as Tessarael mentioned in his post, a duelist (even one with high intelligence) will have poor AC compared to an armored fighter, and won't be dealing any more damage.

If you are determined to play as a duelist, though, I'd suggest starting out as a rogue and then taking levels in duelist when you meet the prereqs. When you're in combat, try to get in flanking position so that you can add sneak attack damage to your hits.

 

[Tessarael]

Ok. More suggestions. Race: Earth Genasi, Str +2, Con +2, Wis -2, Cha -2, favored class: Fighter, Darkvision 60'. Abilities as follows (including the 2 ability points you get):

Str: 17 -> 20
Dex: 17 -> 18
Con: 16 -> 18
Int: 16
Wis: 15 -> 14
Cha: 12 -> 10

Barbarian 2 (Rage 1/day, +10' movement, Uncanny Dodge)
Fighter 4 (3 feats: Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, Weapon Specialization)
Monk 2 (+2 AC from Wis)
Duelist 2 (+2 AC from Int)

4 feats from levels: Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse (necessary for Duelist), Improved Initiative

BAB: +9, melee attacks: +14/+9

Saves:
Fort: 2+4+3 + 4 = +13
Ref: 3+3 +4 = +10
Will: 1+3 +2 = +6

AC: 10 + 4 + 2 + 2 = 18
Get an Amulet of Natural Armor.
Get Bracers.
Get a Ring of Protection bonus to AC.
Pray that you're not hit until you can buy better AC boosting magic items.

HP: 12 + 6.5 + 4*5.5 + 2*4.5 + 2*5.5 + 40 = 100.5 on average

Skill points: 6*4+6*1+4*4+6*2+6*2 = 70

I still think Duelist is a terrible choice. I've failed to min/max in any sane fashion. Do you really want to make a character that doesn't use a shield and wears no armor?

 

[Storminator]

Can you feel poor Tessarael crying as he tries to min/max a duelist?

Play an Unfettered

At 11th level you get
BAB 11
F/R/W 3/7/3
AC bonus 4
INT to AC vs one foe
Sneak attack +2d6
Evasion
3 bonus feats (7 feats total, 8 if human)
56 + 14*INT skill points

If you put a 17 in Dex, and bump once, another 17 in INT and bump once, wear a chain shirt and a shield, you can be at AC 24 (28 vs one foe) without magic items.

With the 16 in STR, you attack on +14/+9/+4 and
with the 16 in CON you'll get 8+10*4.5+11*33=86 hp

As for items, spread your money, get a decent weapon (~+2ish) and same for armor and shield. Add in a Ring of Pro (+1 or +2) and you can get to around 30 AC, which might keep you alive for a moment or two.

PS

 

[Endur]

Human Swashbuckler (i.e. Errol Flynn)
Rogue 11 ... +6d6 sneak attack damage
Feats: Weapon Finesse Rapier, Improved Initiative, Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, Improved Critical Rapier.
Special Ability: Crippling Strike.

Max out your dex.

Lots of skill ranks in tumble, use rope, move silently, hide, spot, listen, sense motive, diplomacy, climb, balance, swim, etc.

 

[sithramir]

Hello all,
I am the DM for which my poor excellent role player is being forced worry about creating a new character. I agree that duelist will never be very min/maxed as it just can't compete with a 2-handed power attack fighter with full plate. However, I will put a few suggestions on making it better for you also.

Here are Jarlaxle the drow's stats. Probably one of the best made characters i've seen and he also has a lot of flavor. Below this I will show some excellent power game ways to make a duelist work:

Jarlaxle
Male Drow Elf Ranger 1/Rogue 4/Duelist 9/Fighter 3: CR 18; Medium-size humanoid (elf); HD 1d10+2 plus 4d6+8 plus 9d10+18 plus 3d10+6; hp 127; Init +9; Spd 30 ft.; AC 31 (touch 20, flat-footed 23); Atk +24/+19/+14/+9 melee (1d8+10/19-20/x2, +5 wounding longsword) and +24/+19/+14/+9 melee (1d8+10/19-20/x2, +5 longsword) or +26/+26/+21/+21 ranged (1d4+10/19-20/x2, +4 dagger); SA Precise attack +2d6, sneak attack +2d6; SQ Drow traits, acrobatic attack, canny defense, elaborate parry, enhanced mobility, evasion, favored enemy drow +1, grace, improved reflexes, uncanny dodge; SR 28; AL CN; SV Fort +11, Ref +16, Will +7; Str 14, Dex 20, Con 15, Int 18, Wis 15, Cha 18. Height 5 ft. 4 in.
Skills and Feats: Balance +15, Bluff +15, Climb +9, Diplomacy +15, Hide +15, Intimidate +8, Intuit Direction +5, Jump +9, Knowledge (Menzoberranzan history) +15, Knowledge (Menzoberranzan local) +15, Knowledge (Menzoberranzan nobility and royalty) +15, Listen +15, Move Silently +15, Profession (gamer) +6, Ride (horse) +7, Ride (lizard) +10, Search +15, Sense Motive +15, Speak Language (Common, Draconic, Drow, Drow Sign, Elven), Spot +15, Tumble +9, Use Magic Device +15, Use Rope +7, Wilderness Lore +7; Ambidexterity, Combat Reflexes, Daylight Adaptation, Dodge, Expertise, Improved Initiative, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Mobility, Quick Draw, Spring Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, Twin Sword Style, Weapon Focus (longsword), Weapon Specialization (longsword), Whirlwind Attack.
Possessions: +5 longsword, +5 wounding longsword, bracer of +4 throwing daggers, cape of scintillating colors, vest of displacement, eye patch of mind shielding, brooch of shielding, ring of protection +5, ring of freedom of movement, boots of dark elvenkind (can create a ghost sound effect at will, centered on Jarlaxle), wand of illumination, wand of lightning bolt (6th level, 32 charges), necklace of magic missiles (5th level, 18 charges), diatryma feather of wondrous power, hat of holding [light pellets (10), whistle of Bregan D'aerthe (this item is magically attuned only to the ears of Bregan D'aerthe members), portable hole, greater piwafwi cloak, globe of language translation, various other trinkets].


Ok. First off you want to get as many levels in actual duelist as you can because the precise strike you gain is much better overall than sneak attacks plus you now need enough lvls to make full bonus from int.

Things to consider:
You can gain a feat that allows you to sneak attack undead. Choose this.

You can have a lot of levels of thief and buy a ring of blinking effectively making yourself very hard to hit while also being able to always sneak attack. (undead feat above makes you not useless in those encounters)

Items you should buy are not typical ac boosting items. Buy a ring of mage armor and an item that produce's a shield effect once or twice per day. Cost for ring of mage armor is 12k and cost of item of shield once/day would be 1*1*2000*4/5=1800gp. Spend minor moneys buying natural armor and ring or prots but don't worry about ac too much. If you waste all your money on it you're going to be a decent ac guy with nothing to offer.

What you should look for is options. This is why Jarlaxle's character is good.

Suggested items include:
Slippers of spider climb
Someway to levitate or fly once/day
An item that gives spell protection for instance:
item that grants minor globe of invulnerability 1/day
(cost= 7*4*2000*2/5=12000 or so?)
An item that grants see invisibility and also darkvision if you don't have it.
Buy an adamantite weapon and silversheen for damage reduction and mages
Cloak of resistance is soooo key.
If you choose a race with some resistances you can boost those up with the savage species feat that adds 10 resistance per feat to add some defense.
Cloak of displacement or ring of blinking as stated above

Ring of invis
chime of opening

I'd suggest the Eladree race from sean reynolds website. It will give you several of the abilities emulted by items above for a +2ecl. It also gives you DR and resistances that can be boosted. It also allows you to use aasimar feats so you can get wings, searing light 1/day, more daylight spells, levitate spells, etc.
If you use something with ecl definitely get bracers of +2 con if not beter to help even con damage.

Another idea is taking a lvl of shadowdancer or whatever its called to gain hide in plain sight. This can be used to well in fights when something hits too hard for you to tank. Hide and invis and come back or hide and sneak, etc.

Hope this gives the ENworlders some more ideas to help also.

Sithramir