Help me get excited about 2nd Edition.

[Holy Bovine]

Pretty bad memory you got there, huh? Dex adjustments applied in 2e.

To saves? Really? Was this part of the PHB or those Player's Option things? I never used them. Actually after a quick check they did indeed apply to saves vs. things that could be dodged. To be honest that means that for all the years I played 2E everyone I played with did that wrong

Ever heard of Com1's?

Nope.

Don't know what this means... ??

One representative of a monster race is pretty much like any other. You would never see Orcs with Ranger levels or advanced beasts.

2e-bashing is fine (and expected!) - but uninformed comments are, well, ridiculous.

 

[Holy Bovine]

I've found since playing 3rd Edition the players seem to focus on the rule more, you know 5ft steps to avoid AoO, move little figure here to flank and get sneak attack. In 2nd Edition where we didn't use miniatures we had folks discribing their ducking under the opponents guard to strike at his exposed under arm and such. Sure you can do that in 3rd Edition, but I've found that with counters/miniatures to move on a board it becomes more like a wargame, and less desciptive.

I really can;t say anything to this as I have always used miniatures in every roleplaying game I've ever played. Mostly just to get an idea of 'who is where' but I have never noticed a drop in description of what every player is doing *shrug* I could see how that might happen though and why it would be irritating.

 

[Ciaran]

One of my DMs runs 3rd edition without miniatures. We've only had one session of the game so far, but it went pretty smoothly. I also ran two sessions of a short-lived game that didn't use miniatures. These games went fine; there wasn't much use of attacks of opportunity, but the guy who took Combat Reflexes hasn't complained yet.

Honestly, for all that miniatures are integrated into the combat system, I think 3e runs just fine without them. As long as the players have a decent picture of the situation in their minds, you should have no problems.

- Eric

 

[rounser]

I consider kits superior to prestige classes in some ways. Remember, it was the game balance implementation which was flawed, not the concept - that and the "balancing stats with roleplaying penalties" thing. To confuse flawed concept with flawed implementation suggests a significant absence of clever, IMO.

For instance, I'd rather play a 2nd ed Blade, Swashbuckler, Assassin or Wild Mage from first level than almost any 3rd ed prestige class I can think of. A character concept should not be a carrot to reward staying in the game, as prestige classes were partially conceived, according to Dancey...whose designerthink was that anyway?

 

[Rary the Traitor]

For instance, I'd rather play a 2nd ed Blade, Swashbuckler, Assassin or Wild Mage from first level than almost any 3rd ed prestige class I can think of. A character concept should not be a carrot to reward staying in the game, as prestige classes were partially conceived...

I agree completely!


A few more points in favor of 2nd ed:

- Halflings have hairy feet!

- Scribing spells in your wizard's spellbook costs nothing!

- Spells that last 1 round/level are useful in non-combat situations!

 

[Spatula]

For instance, I'd rather play a 2nd ed Blade, Swashbuckler, Assassin or Wild Mage from first level than almost any 3rd ed prestige class I can think of. A character concept should not be a carrot to reward staying in the game, as prestige classes were partially conceived, according to Dancey...whose designerthink was that anyway?

The special abilities are the carrot, the character concept is not. If you want to play a swashbuckler, play one from 1st level. You just don't get any special swashbuckler powers unless you enter the prestige class. Kits are useful (though often broken) in 2E because the classes are so inflexible; in 3E you can bring just about any character concept to life without even using prestige classes.

What's good about 2E? From a powergamer's point of view, multiclassing, kits, specialty priests, and psionics can all be abused mightily (especially psionics). And there's all the different settings, as others have mentioned. Otherwise I can't think of much.

 

[rounser]

The special abilities are the carrot, the character concept is not. If you want to play a swashbuckler, play one from 1st level. You just don't get any special swashbuckler powers unless you enter the prestige class.

If there's a Swashbuckler prestige class, everyone knows you're not a "real" swashbuckler until some arbitrary rules decide you're ready. Sure, you can roleplay it as if you were, but the rules are ignoring your attempts, not supporting them. That's bad game design, especially when there's no reason why certain prestige classes/kits shouldn't kick in from first level. Some you should have to wait for, such as Archmage, which is (for me) the iconic prestige class. Swashbucklers should be able to buckle their swashes properly from first level, IMO, not be "pretend" or "wannabe" until the damn game says "okay, you can be a real one now" and ZAP, there you are when you gain that level.

Kits are useful (though often broken) in 2E because the classes are so inflexible; in 3E you can bring just about any character concept to life without even using prestige classes.

I disagree. Unless you go to town with splatbooks, a handful of skill points, a feat or two and multiclassing will still require no small amount of imagination and handwaving to fill in the gaps. Prestige classes/kits help to plug this hole - and kits bothered to plug it from first level, and didn't require you to plan ahead for levels on end, as opposed to following what's going on in the campaign for career options. Or, at least, they would if you had a prestige class/kit hybrid which doesn't require it to be taken at first level or not at all (kits) and doesn't require lots of prerequisites in all cases so hold off till mid level (p-classes) when it's not called for, which hopefully we'll have in 4th ed.

 

[Victim]

Two weapon fighting, especially when combined with high strength, is fun to abuse as well.

You can already emulate kits by taking appropriate feats. Weapon Finess, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Expertise, etc are perfect swashbuckler feats.

 

[rounser]

Weapon Finess, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Expertise, etc are perfect swashbuckler feats.

I'd still rather take the 2E kit. It's just more flavourful to have the rules back you up solidly, rather than wishy-washy-ly.

 

[arwink]

It's a lot easier to drop in wierd and new magic without justifying it under the item creation rules.

There's still a lot of books out there supporting the system, and you can probably pick them up cheap now people have converted to 3e.

Humanoids handbook is a lot easier to work with than ECL's