D&D 5E Help me grok mega-dungeons

[FormerlyHemlock]

So... what's a mega-dungeon?

One quasi-definition I sort of like is "a dungeon of potentially unlimited scope which cannot be 'cleared'." See implications here: http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress...ure-maps-the-unknown-goals-in-the-megadungeon

 

[RedShirtNo5.1]

I think it's because post-2e D&D followed the module convention of "attacks immediately" monsters rather than the Reaction Table of older editions. Talking to monsters used to be more common, and I find running Classic D&D it's done a lot, eg by my son, as he has not had the kill-everything convention drilled into him.

I don't know. My experience was that we certainly knew reaction rolls at the time in basic and 1e, but anyone who DMed ignored those rules, and just made a decision about how they thought the monster would react. Which for most evil creatures was to attack. So I think the "attacks immediately" isn't simply something migrating from the modules. That said, xp for solely for killing didn't help matters.

I'm not sure anyone in this thread has said you cannot do those things. Based on comments I've heard over the years, however, I suspect that most folks don't equate megadungeon with the Social Interaction pillar of RPGs. So the question is, why not? Is it because too many megadungeons have tended to ignore such things, or because of how they are run, or just how the term "megadungeon" is interpreted?

OK, I think that one of the things that makes a dungeon into a dungeon is not simply that it is underground, but that it is dangerous. And a lot of the danger is monsters who are ready to kill you. So while you can have social interaction, in comparison to say an urban environment there are fewer chances and the opportunity cost of talking, as opposed to say making a surprise attack, is higher.
I mean, this goes directly to Mouse's question of what is it that you get in a megadungeon that you don't get (or get less of) elsewhere. It's not the role-play pillar that you get more of. It's the exploration pillar.

I'll also disagree that the only reason for combat in a megadungeon is survival or loot. In a recent game, the players were weighting between collecting a bounty for giant rats in the sewer (a classic), and helping some gnomes who they met in the undercity against raids by kobolds. So they had both a mercenary option and a "heroic" option.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Whenever I think of "megadungeons" that I would like to run one day, I generally end up with one of two plots.

The more interesting plot is "Escape". I had an idea I scrapped (it was too big for me at the time) of the players appearing inside this massive machine. A machine big enough for towns and monsters, and the only goal was to find the way out.

It is an easy plot, and one I am going to explore at some point.


The second, and actually as I think more about it also has some great potentials, is the "Get the Macguffin" style. There is something deep inside this place that the players need or want. Maybe the dungeon is a massive construct monster and the point of the campaign or the next few sessions is to get to the heart to "kill it".

That sounds like something I want to do now... *sigh* added to the list...


But, I think, what makes both of these ideas work and what I think makes for truly spectacular "megadungeons" is that idea that was floated by earlier. In a lot of ways, the Dungeon is the setting for the game. You're expecting a sizable chunk, if not the entire campaign, to take place in this one location exclusively.

And if you use that as a definition... what does truly stop a massive city from being a "megadungeon" or a large enough forest or island. They are megadungeons by a different name in a lot of ways.

 

[CapnZapp]

I've been gaming since I was 9, back in 1983, and to this day I don't "get" mega-dungeons in D&D. I've had people try to explain it to me, and I've just. Never. Gotten it. I find even normal-length dungeons boring more often than not.

So, I'm going to try to ask it a different way.

What do you enjoy in a mega-dungeon? What do you get out of it that you can't get--or at least not get as much--in other D&D games/settings? Why do you enjoy those aspects?

(Important background: My tastes run to plot-heavy games, where the combats are almost all plot-related; and to fewer, more dangerous combats. I don't care for random encounters. I don't care for combat for its own sake. I prefer mystery-solving and social/political interaction to seeing what's in the next treasure chest.)

I don't have an answer for you. I like combat.

I'm guessing a dungeon wears out its welcome after a while.

Either it keeps to its themes and presents more of the same (which loses my interest) or it offers incredulous variety (which gets so unrealistic it too loses my interest).

I simply see no need to stay in one and the same dungeon when it's so much easier to place a different scenario somewhere else.

In the end, I view the dungeon as playing the game with the training wheels still on. Meaning a dungeon has its place: its limited nature makes it easy to DM. (A regular sized dungeon, that is.)

But after a while, you move on. Then, dungeons become more of a trope you use only when really appropriate, and not otherwise.

In 5th edition, a dungeon is a good way to make sure the party is softened up by a few encounters before the main BBEG-facing event.

Even then, I see few reasons to use large dungeons and none for mega dungeons.

I do see the attraction in using a dungeon for combat-as-sport; that is, making it a game challenge to survive the dungeon. But even then, there's a limit to how big they need to be. I mean, I imagine even Dungeon & Dragons Online (surely combat-as-sport if there ever was) videogame sticks to medium-sized dungeons; far from the "mega-dungeons" of this thread.

So, no.

I've had a DM who villingly selected and ran things like the 3e Temple of Elemental Evil for us, and boy, did it get dreary after a while, especially when we realized we essentially acted as nothing more than cleaning ladies (except the office was a volcano ring, and the dust and spilled coffee was monsters abd cultist priests)... le sigh.

 

[MackMcMacky]

I'm not sure anyone in this thread has said you cannot do those things. Based on comments I've heard over the years, however, I suspect that most folks don't equate megadungeon with the Social Interaction pillar of RPGs. So the question is, why not? Is it because too many megadungeons have tended to ignore such things, or because of how they are run, or just how the term "megadungeon" is interpreted?

When someone says megadungeons are all about this or that and that they prefer role-playing or solving mysteries it isn't hard for a person who does not know better to assume you cannot do those things.

The campaign I just ran was set in the Temple of Elemental Evil. My players have done plenty of role-playing as they have solved a murder mystery, searched for missing persons, discovered the significance of certain items of power, etc. At this point, they are high level characters and have removed the threat of the megadungeon, for now, and are chasing after one of the villains who escaped to the City of Greyhawk. They have served as heroes in a battle that saved 'the land', have been knighted, and three of them now are vassals to the Viscount. All of this involved role-playing.

And because this was a megadungeon with a small city and several smaller communities as the principle setting pieces for the adventure and multiple factions with multiple plots, the players had agency and drove the "storyline" rather than a linear "path".

A lot of people don't do a lot of role-playing in their games whether it is in a megadungeon, dungeon, city adventure, etc. If you don't like to do much role-playing then mega-dungeons are certainly easy to use as they have lots of potential combat encounters all in one general area. Doesn't mean that is a problem with mega-dungeons.

 

[Maxperson]

I've been gaming since I was 9, back in 1983, and to this day I don't "get" mega-dungeons in D&D. I've had people try to explain it to me, and I've just. Never. Gotten it. I find even normal-length dungeons boring more often than not.

So, I'm going to try to ask it a different way.

What do you enjoy in a mega-dungeon? What do you get out of it that you can't get--or at least not get as much--in other D&D games/settings? Why do you enjoy those aspects?

(Important background: My tastes run to plot-heavy games, where the combats are almost all plot-related; and to fewer, more dangerous combats. I don't care for random encounters. I don't care for combat for its own sake. I prefer mystery-solving and social/political interaction to seeing what's in the next treasure chest.)

This is what I like about mega-dungeons. They have a large backstory which influences all of the encounters. They have large open spaces for me to create to my heart's content. They are challenging, since you generally cannot pop in and out, so you have to rest in places that are "safe", but not really. They are very risk, but also very rewarding. As mentioned previously, you cannot explore all of it, and even if you do, other monsters will often take up residence in previously explored areas. Cultures pop up in parts of the dungeon, so you can make allies as well as enemies. Intrigue and roleplay are still a large part of them. Powerful denizens can mentor PCs, provide places trade, and so on.

There's lots to be said for a mega-dungeon.

 

[Lanefan]

Just for kicks (and to narrow down the definitions a bit) it might be fun to list what published megadungeons are out there. I can quickly think of:

Ruins of Undermountain (2 box sets, not sure whether the third one ever saw the light of day)
Dragon Mountain (box set)
Ruins of Myth Drannor (box set, a whole ruined danger-filled city rather than just a single dungeon)
Temple of Elemental Evil (both the original and the return-to versions)
Rappan Athuk
The World's Largest Dungeon

And a few on the fringe of mega-dom:

Dark Tower (it's big, but not quite mega)
Princes of the Apocalypse (the interlinked dungeons below might be a borderline mega but could also be seen as 4 not-mega standalones)
Tegal Manor
Eyes of the Stone Thief [PF]
The Emerald Spire [13th Age]

I'm not sure what versions of Castle Greyhawk ever got published other than the joke version (WGA-7, was it?).

Feel free to add to this list, I know I've missed a bunch.

Lanefan

p.s. - edited to include some suggestions from down-thread.

 

[Mouseferatu]

[MENTION=6801228]Chaosmancer[/MENTION], you'd have to do some conversion, since it's a 13th Age product, but take a look at Eyes of the Stone Thief. I'm reading it right now, as part of my deeper look at mega-dungeons, and I think you might find it exactly what you want, as there's room for both story ideas you mentioned.

 

[Mouseferatu]

[MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION], if you're willing to include D&D-variants like Pathfinder and 13th Age, we can add The Emerald Spire and Eyes of the Stone Thief to that list.

 

[Lanefan]

[MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION], if you're willing to include D&D-variants like Pathfinder and 13th Age, we can add The Emerald Spire and Eyes of the Stone Thief to that list.

I'll take your word for it, having never heard of either one of those modules.

Mega, or near-mega, for each?