Help, my players dont work well together

[MoonZar]

Hello,

I'm a dm since 10 years now, i have many experience in the field of dming.

My players show up to all the session, and they never miss one session.

My problem is that most of the time, they lack leadership and don't work well together. We play the same campaign for one year now, and i dont see much progress in the group teamworks. They don't feel like heroes anymore, because they always have trouble with my challenge and monster.

They have good character that should be enought powerful to complete the main campaign but they dont go anywhere because of a lack of leadership. Most of the time the character argue each others for treasure, what to do next and other thing like this.

I dont want to use a NPC to lead them, this will only make the thing worst i thing.

Maybe i should kill one PC or ask a players to change his character to change the mood of the game...

Any suggestion ? I'm a little desesperate and i have already try many things...

MoonZar

 

[Old One]

Give 'em an a$$-whuppin'...

MZ -

Before I launch...let me ask a few of questions:

(1) What level are they currently?

(2) Are their any PCs that really "should" be leaders (ie, high charisma types - bard, paladins, clerics) or has everyone used CHA as a "dump stat"?

(3) Do you pull punches on them when they play poorly, show a lack of teamwork and spend an hour of game time arguing over division of loot? By this I mean do you "fudge" in their favor when a properly played challenge would take them out due to poor game play.

Focusing on Item #3 above (and by the tone of your post I am assuming this might be the case), what I think they need is a good, old fashioned a$$-whipping. Place them up against a LN or LE group with strong leadership, well thought out tactics and good team work and absolutely beat the tar out of them. The catch is that this enemy doesn't want them dead...it wants them captured for whatever reason (revenge, ransom, slavery).

You can then use the leader of the enemy group to scoff at their lack of team work...especially as the enemy is "ohhing and ahhing" over some of the PCs nice shiny gear as they divide it up.

Things like:

"With gear this powerful, you should have easily defeated us...but my superior tactics clearly won the day...let that be a lesson to you if you survive this."

"When I first heard that we had to track you down, I was a bit apprehensive, but your foolish actions made our job easy."

"Perhaps you should enlist in the King's militia...if you ever get out of this...you need some rudimentary lessons in tactics."

Another way to do the same thing, from a different angle would be to kick the PC's collective butts, using primarily immobilizing poisons, nets or other non-lethal tactics, then have another adventuring group show and rescue them. The saving group uses outstanding teamwork, precision coordination and good tactics to soundly whip the adversary and save the day. If asked, the NPC leader will give the PCs some pointers on how to better work together to survive.

My 2 coppers...

~ Old One

 

[MoonZar]

(1) What level are they currently?

They are level 12 mostly, we play this campaign since level 1-2...

(2) Are their any PCs that really "should" be leaders (ie, high charisma types - bard, paladins, clerics) or has everyone used CHA as a "dump stat"?

Most of them have high charisma, that what make me very crazy. Sometime i think to lower their charisma stats. As u say.. most of them put a dump stat on the charisma without thinking what this mean.

The point that make me more disapointed that they mostly are very experience players 7 years and more of DND.

Here a resume of the PC (all of them mostly 12 level) :

1 paladin Cha: 18
1 cleric / sorcerer Cha: 20
1 wizard Cha: 18
1 Samurai Cha: 12
1 Fighter/Rogue Cha: 14

(3) Do you pull punches on them when they play poorly, show a lack of teamwork and spend an hour of game time arguing over division of loot? By this I mean do you "fudge" in their favor when a properly played challenge would take them out due to poor game play.

I mostly kick their but when this happen. When they argue to much to take action, i usually make the thing move and attack them because they take too much time. I don't lower the hp or the attack roll of the monster, i dont have pity when they play so bad...

For exemple, in my campaign you have a ruined city and their a evil vampire want to take over the world (i know this classical but still). The vampire was sleeping in the beggining of the campaign to give opportunity for the players to storm the city before the vampire get up...

They have wait 5-6 years (campaign world time) before step in the city... and my vampire had planty of time to raise an army and storm the country.

Focusing on Item #3 above (and by the tone of your post I am assuming this might be the case), what I think they need is a good, old fashioned a$$-whipping. Place them up against a LN or LE group with strong leadership, well thought out tactics and good team work and absolutely beat the tar out of them. The catch is that this enemy doesn't want them dead...it wants them captured for whatever reason (revenge, ransom, slavery).

You can then use the leader of the enemy group to scoff at their lack of team work...especially as the enemy is "ohhing and ahhing" over some of the PCs nice shiny gear as they divide it up.

Things like:

"With gear this powerful, you should have easily defeated us...but my superior tactics clearly won the day...let that be a lesson to you if you survive this."

"When I first heard that we had to track you down, I was a bit apprehensive, but your foolish actions made our job easy."

"Perhaps you should enlist in the King's militia...if you ever get out of this...you need some rudimentary lessons in tactics."

Another way to do the same thing, from a different angle would be to kick the PC's collective butts, using primarily immobilizing poisons, nets or other non-lethal tactics, then have another adventuring group show and rescue them. The saving group uses outstanding teamwork, precision coordination and good tactics to soundly whip the adversary and save the day. If asked, the NPC leader will give the PCs some pointers on how to better work together to survive.

I have already kick their ass deeply, some of them was also slave in a village of dark elf.

Maybe i should humiliate them by use a npc group to rescue the PC. BTW if the situation doesn't improve a group of npc will take care of the vampire.

My only probleme is this will be a shame to play 1 year of campaign and finish like this...

But i think some of your advice about the npc that taunt them with their teamworks can be very good.

The group try to work strategy but when the combat start they all work like lonewolf and forgot about their idea. Everybody do what they thing right without listen to others..

MoonZar

 

[Old One]

Hmmm...

Sounds like you have a bunch of Chaotic E(verywhere) players !

The CHAs of most is astoundingly high...maybe it is a problem of "too many chiefs, not enough indians" ...

If you have already beat them, looted them, sold them into slavery, stolen their (the PCs, that is) wives and girlfriends, etc...then there is not much more you can do to them.

Having a rival group sweep in and accomplish their "mission" - thus receiving the gold, goodies and accolades - would work well, but might end the campaign on a sour note. However, if they do play stupidly against intelligent enemies that want to kill them, then you should let them die (IMO).

If they all run off in different directions, isolate a couple of them and let them die horrible, tortuous deaths as the well-led enemy (assuming this is the very intelligent vampire and his/her minions) snuffs them out. Let the dead PCs come back as Vampire Spawn and play (intelligently and charismatically, of course) against their former companions.

There may be nothing you can do here...I have played with Chaotic E(verywheres) before, but usually there is only one in a group. If you are "blessed" with 7...I feel for you, my friend.

Good luck!

~ Old One

 

[MoonZar]

Sounds like you have a bunch of Chaotic E(verywhere) players !

...

There may be nothing you can do here...I have played with Chaotic E(verywheres) before, but usually there is only one in a group. If you are "blessed" with 7...I feel for you, my friend.

Well i think that because all character see thing so much different even if they have mostly the same alignment...

I guess you're right, i told them so many time that they are soldier of chaos lol

I'm a player in a Neutral Evil group and we play in team so well beside this Lawful Good group...

BTW... i dont have trouble with killing them if they dont behave, but one year of campaign ending so badly will be a shame.

Thanks for the advice...

MoonZar

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

To me, it sounds like you're kicking their ass TOO much. You need to foster relationships amongst them. Kicking their ass doesn't teach them anything b/c you're the DM - you can always whip up an encounter they can't handle.

Better to tailor your encounters to the group and give them broad hints that they need to work together to defeat the enemy. Better yet, give them some traps or puzzles that require teamwork.

To avoid fights over treasure, have them write out an agreement PRIOR to the adventure. You can always have them roll to see who picks magic items first if they can't agree.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

They don't feel like heroes anymore, because they always have trouble with my challenge and monster.

Do the players realize that they suck at tactics? Have they sucked consistently at tactics for 12 levels? How did they manage to survive for that long without getting thoroughly annhilated? Have you ever talked to your players and explained to them that if they acted more as a group, they'd have a better chance at surviving? Do you play, as a player, with these guys in another campaign? How do they fare? Even if they don't do too well, do they still have fun?

I know, I know, lots of questions

(en passant, salut!)

AR

 

[MoonZar]

To me, it sounds like you're kicking their ass TOO much. You need to foster relationships amongst them. Kicking their ass doesn't teach them anything b/c you're the DM - you can always whip up an encounter they can't handle.

Better to tailor your encounters to the group and give them broad hints that they need to work together to defeat the enemy. Better yet, give them some traps or puzzles that require teamwork.

To avoid fights over treasure, have them write out an agreement PRIOR to the adventure. You can always have them roll to see who picks magic items first if they can't agree.

Maybe you're right, i should go back to the basic and use simple encounter to make then gain convidence and work better.

I have thing about this before and send lower encounter, and when i do so they fight each other to see who will kill the monster first lol and this chaos again.

For the treasure, u gave me a idea, maybe a geas could be good hahaha

MoonZar

 

[MoonZar]

Do the players realize that they suck at tactics? Have they sucked consistently at tactics for 12 levels? How did they manage to survive for that long without getting thoroughly annhilated? Have you ever talked to your players and explained to them that if they acted more as a group, they'd have a better chance at surviving? Do you play, as a player, with these guys in another campaign? How do they fare? Even if they don't do too well, do they still have fun?

I think they still have fun, but sometime this give bad mood on people when they argue too much each other. This hard also for me to have 6 players that argue each other and doesn't work like a team.

Well they was luck most of the time, stabilize in the negative HP. But some of them have died and got raise dead, so they lost one character level.

Yes i have talk with them many time, and they try to find solution, they are trying to resolve this.

But so far this hopeless...

In other campaign with other dm they are mostly the same...

MoonZar

 

[BSF]

The group try to work strategy but when the combat start they all work like lonewolf and forgot about their idea. Everybody do what they thing right without listen to others..

MoonZar

I have a good group that when the dice start rolling seem to forget some of the basics. Like forgetting to leave somebody positioned to protect the mage. I watched them move out and split up with all the melee machines, leaving a gap down the middle straight to the mage. They were fighting ghouls, which have a fort save to avoid paralysis. Charge down the middle and I sacked' the quarterback, in a manner of speaking.

If the players are coordinating poorly, occasionally exploit that. They should learn. Give them more incentive. Give them an NPC that they are escorting to a different city. Make it clear that they will receive _no pay_ if the NPC doesn't make it safely. Maybe they will be inclined to work better together?

OK, the group is high enough level to potentially raise dead right? That's OK. The soul has to choose to come back. Allow them to get into a philosophical discussion with the NPC. The NPC should make it clear that he or she finds it distasteful to think about coming back from a well-deserved afterlife. So, the PC's can't count on the Raise Dead contingency plan.