D&D 4E HELP NEEDED: Fan created 4e conversion project for ghostwalk

[Najo]

I always liked the idea of PCs continuing as ghosts along the party when they die. I am a fan of wraith and planescape, both of which delve into the fate of restless souls and the afterlife.

Then of course, there was the ill fated Ghostwalk setting released late with 3.0 rules and published right as the 3.5 player's handbook came out. Ghostwalk never got a fair shot because of this, and it was quickly disappeared. Most 3.5 players do not know about it.

Overall, I think Monte Cook and Sean K Reynolds did a great job. Both guys were doing something creative and daring with D&D and WOTC didn't give them the resources they needed to polish the book.

Anyrate, I never got to play or run Ghostwalk in 3.0 or 3.5. Now I am playing 4e and do not want to go back to the old rules but want to play a ghostwalk style campaign.

So I am asking the community to help convert rules for a ghostwalk campaign and post them here. I am going to place a list of the items needed, and then either please submit your own rules for any items or reply to someone's post and offer suggestions to how they could revise their submission.

Even if you are not familiar with ghostwalk, some of the items anyone can collaborate on and all 4e DMs and players should be able to contribute with rules development suggestions.

Here is the list. Keep the design true to the D&D 4e style of less is more, playablity over complexity, and tie the ghostwalk ideas into the new 4e cosmology instead of the great wheel.

Rules needing converting:
* Ethereal Plane (should play as the near ethereal/ spirit world and not another plane of existance like the feywild or shadowfel)
* True Afterlife (how does this tie to the shadowfel?)
* Ethereal creatures and ghost manifestation (how does it work with ghost in 4e)
* redo ghost monster so it plays with the ethereal rules properily
* Ghost character and monster templates (so any living thing can die and become a ghost)
* Ectoplasm (for manifesting ghosts to interact with the physical world)

Classes and Class Powers
* Eidolon and Eidolancer (either as feats, classes or class powers for other classes. My thought is to make them two sets of powers, and as a ghost you can take those powers instead of your class powers)
* Ghost advancement, retraining and class powers

Prestige Classes (make into paragon paths or feats with class powers)
* Arboreal Guardian
* Bone Collector
* Deathwarden Chanter
* Ghost Slayer

Skills
* Modify how ghosts use and are affected by the skills in 4e

Feats
* Ghost Path feats
* Mortal feats for fighting and aiding ghosts and undead
* Other feats found in the ghostwalk campaign that need conversion

Equipment and Magic Items
* any ghost items
* Ghostwalk magic items and artifacts

Magic Spells
* Many of the spells used for interacting with ghosts should be changed into feats, rituals or class powers as appropiate.
* Do not worry about bards, druids or ranger spells.
* any rules ideas on representing ectomancy in simple manner

Deities
* convert the gods
* give each god a channel divinity power

Monsters
* Convert the ones in the book
Artaaglith
Bone Singer
Dreadram
Ectoplasmic Vermin
Fire Spectre
Ghosts
Ghosteater
Monstrous Vampire
Mumia
Necroplasm
Spectral Steed
Spirit Tree
Undead Martyr
Yuan-ti

* Any monsters fitting into the themes of the ghostwalk campaign


I like to thank everyone in advance for anything they can contribue.

 

[Najo]

Just bumping this to get more exposure.

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

Man, I haven't played Ghostwalk in forever. Never got a chance to run it as a DM (actually, the only published setting my group used that I didn't run) but I really liked it.

I'm at work right now, so I can't really work up anything today, but I'll take a look at this tomorrow and see if I can help with any of it.

 

[Najo]

Thanks Eldritch Lord, your help is appreciated. How long you guys run Ghostwalk and what affect on the game did having player's become ghosts have? What were the differences in the feel and gameplay compared to normal D&D?

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

Thanks Eldritch Lord, your help is appreciated. How long you guys run Ghostwalk and what affect on the game did having player's become ghosts have? What were the differences in the feel and gameplay compared to normal D&D?

Well, let's see...

1) We did three campaigns in Ghostwalk: one "shakedown" campaign, a medium-length (28-30 sessions) dungeon crawl-ish campaign to try out the rules; one medium-length "backwards" campaign where we started as ghosts and quested to become living beings again, which was interesting to say the least; and one that was cut short after 2 sessions that we just got to create characters for and not much else.

2) Having the option of becoming ghosts was really freeing, to all of the players in our group.

Our hard-core RPer is usually paranoid of dying at low levels, since without access to resurrection that would mean all his RPing goes to waste and he'd have to roll up a new character; he's tried to play gung-ho melee types who aren't afraid of death, but it never quite worked because he plays them too cautiously for their archetype. When he found out that in Ghostwalk you don't have to drop a character, just play their ghost, he was able to RP those kinds of characters to the hilt, including a Viking-styled barbarian who died and thought endless adventuring with illusions of his old party were his eternal reward.

Our hard-core optimizer was fascinated with the ghost-mortal interaction rules and really liked messing with the poltergeist/haunting paths. He's usually a good RPer as well, but he was particularly good in that campaign because he was able to min-max enough with eidolon(cer) levels vs. real levels to create two entirely different characters and playstyles with the same basic character, just based on choice of ghost abilities.

3) The feel was different in a couple of ways. First, the DM that was running it had been using a diabolical mastermind lich, a vampire warlord, and an insane ghost cult leader for his last three villains, so having the seemingly-undead characters be the good guys for a change was really refreshing. Also, we got to explore philosophy quite a bit, discussing death vs. true death, the nature of undeath and necromancy, and other topics like that, both in- and out of character.

 

[Najo]

Wow, sounds very awesome.

So what threat was there to the ghost characters? How did ghosts die?

Also, what elements of necromancy from 3.5 should be included in the list above, since 4e is a bit necro-lite at the moment (until player's handbook 2 comes out that is, I think)? What did you guys find usefull in your game for necromancy?

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

So what threat was there to the ghost characters? How did ghosts die?

The first campaign was fairly rules-heavy, RP-light, to determine balance, so the DM basically kept throwing monsters at us until we died, then adjusted challenge levels and repeated the process. The second one featured a group of ghost slayers and necromancers that were killing all the good ghosts in Manifest so the evil ones could take over the world, so there were lots of anti-ghost items/abilities in play.

Also, what elements of necromancy from 3.5 should be included in the list above, since 4e is a bit necro-lite at the moment (until player's handbook 2 comes out that is, I think)? What did you guys find usefull in your game for necromancy?

PHB2 is Arcane, Divine, and Primal, so no Shadow means no necromancy. As to what to convert over in terms of necromancy...I'll have to think about it and get back to you when I convert some other stuff.

 

[Najo]

So when ghosts died are they permamently destroyed or they go to the true afterlife?

How was the game balance when characters would be fighting, die, and the keep fighting as ghosts? What is the transition between death and ghost handled like?

 

[Najo]

Ok, the first things to tackle seems to be how characters level as ghosts, get ghost powers and feats, then experience the calling and the life ephipany.

Issue #1: multiclassing rules worked for 3.x ghostwalk, doesn't work for 4.0.

Issue #2: can't compare ghost levels with class levels as characters do not level that way anymore.

Issue #3: making ghost equivlent powers for all of the classes is messy. Seems like ghosts should just level as their class still. This removes the need for a casting and non-casting ghost class. But, this means the whole feel of leveling as a ghost and managing your ghost class along with your living class is not there.

Issue #4: Do ghost feats work while your living in the 3.x ghostwalk? If so, it is kinda strange that a character dies, gains some cool powers as a ghost, then comes back to the living and still has those same powers. But, those choices shouldn't be useless either.

So, we need to decided on the design interests for ghost characters and how they should feel and play. Here are my initial thoughts, please add yours.
* Dying and playing on as a ghost should be exciting and feel a bit dangerous.
* It should have elements that makes it feel like it plays different from your character when they are alive. The ghost should gain and loss certain advantages so players have to make a choice to stay living or dead.
* moving back and forth between the ghost and living shoul not be easy, but common enough that it plays a roll in the game and explains the 1/4th of city of manifest is ghosts.
* applying the ghost template and turning on its powers and shutting down or weakening some of the living powers should be easy to apply game mechanics during play.

So, what seems like the best approach to this?



Also, just a few raw ideas thrown out there in no real order (feedback welcome):

Instead of taking 10 minutes, I think ghosts characters should transition after the encounter they die in ends or 5 minutes if no encounter occuring. This is consistent with 4e design.

Ghosts should have the ability to move into the ethereal, gain phasing and insubstantial to a limited degree. When they do this, perhaps they lose the ability to use physical equipment unless it is ghost-touch and the longer they spend in this state, the more vulnerable they are to the calling. While ethereal, they lose some of their class powers too? There has got to be a way to do this without losing the game balance. Did ghosts in ghostwalk go ethereal? This shift between the two states should be hard for the ghost to do or on the ghost. Maybe it eats up healing surges or can only be used once per encounter or once per day.

Ghosts should feel like they retrain when they are raised from the dead. Also, maybe when they are raised they have all of their powers and healing surges expended and have to rest to regain them.

Every time you gain a class level while you are a ghost, you could gain a calling counter or lose a healing surge (ouch) but can take ghost powers and feats in place of normal powers. Once your calling tokens are more than half your class level or your healing surges run out you pass into the true after life. When you are raised from the dead you should be able to untrain any ghost feat or power and swap it for a normal one.

Ghost powers can be based on the paths, while the ghost feats can enhace those powers or basic ghost abilities.

How can ghost powers and feats be useful for a living character but even more useful for a ghost? I think the key to this is how the ghost template works.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Sounds like a good project. Though without the actual ghostwalk book I probably only have a bit to contribute. I liked the setting a great deal, though.

I don't think you have to have the ethereal plane. The feywild and shadowfell are both close enough to reality that they could serve as an ethereal plane without too many problems. I think there's something rather cool in the idea that the locations 'below' the main city aren't so much seperate domains as simply very specific places within the Shadowfell. Getting bodies and ghosts to that location thus carries with it a fair amount of real risk.

That said: I doubt it really hurts anything to wedge the ethereal plane in there.