Help on Bard Build - It's a matter of pride, folks.

[Delemental]

The tricky part here, regardless of what stats, spells, feats, and skills are used, is that it seems that the group, including the DM, is prejudiced against the Bard. It does little good to have a +15 Diplomacy at 2nd level if the DM is one of those "no rolling for social interaction" types, or minimizes the effect of such skills ("Well, with that roll the merchant's attitude shifts from Neutral to Friendly... he still won't sell you the potion.")

If you don't know already, talk to your DM and find out how he plans to deal with social skills. If it's going to be glossed over, then best not devote a lot of resources into that.

As for the group's complaints about the bard's abilities, there are ways to improve it. the Extra Music feat helps with the number of uses per day, and I believe there are spells and magic items that can boost the effect. And a +1 bonus to hit and damage at these low levels is nothing to scoff at; consider that a 4th level fighter's BAB is +4, so the bardic music represents a 25% increase in his base fighting ability. And your group doesn't even have a straight fighter, making that boost an even bigger percentage.

For Bardic Knowledge, it's true that you can roleplay or use Gather Info. However, this kind of searching for information takes hours to accomplish, wherreas Bardic Knowledge is something that the character knows right now. And don't forget that a bard can make a check for information regardless of the circumstances, whereas the information might not be available in the location the party is in (nobody in the hamlet of Pigs-Droppings is going to know the name of the second son of the third to last Emperor of the ancient Burgodeen Empire). And even if the Bardic Knowledge fails, a bard has Gather Info as a class skill, plus he had a good Charisma and the ability to influence attitudes, which would help make the search go faster.

What it really boils down to is that if your game is a combat-focused one, the bard isn't going to have a lot to contribute other than support. Bards shine in social interactions. IF you do want to have some melee ability, then the best advice I can give is to focus on combat maneuvers rather than damage output. The whip was mentioned; combine it with Improved Trip.

 

[irdeggman]

A bard will almost never be considered a replacement for a "tank". You need to get that thought right out of your mind.

A bard is best at ranged attacks and not up close and personal.

The fact that they can wear light armors without arcane spell failure is a plus but doesn't negate the lack of hitpoints. Rogues get the sneak attack damage which helps make them better melee than a bard, especially if they can get the foe flanked.

Inspire courage is a great support ability that adds +1 to attack and damage for allies as long as you are singing (so to speak - actually its any perform). At low levels this +1 is a real boon and keeps the clerics from having to memorize things like bless or prayer.

 

[Scratched_back]

The tricky part here, regardless of what stats, spells, feats, and skills are used, is that it seems that the group, including the DM, is prejudiced against the Bard. It does little good to have a +15 Diplomacy at 2nd level if the DM is one of those "no rolling for social interaction" types, or minimizes the effect of such skills ("Well, with that roll the merchant's attitude shifts from Neutral to Friendly... he still won't sell you the potion.")

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What it really boils down to is that if your game is a combat-focused one, the bard isn't going to have a lot to contribute other than support. Bards shine in social interactions. IF you do want to have some melee ability, then the best advice I can give is to focus on combat maneuvers rather than damage output. The whip was mentioned; combine it with Improved Trip.

I wouldn't say the game is focused around combat necessarily, but like all groups, everyone likes a scrap from time to time. I'm not worried about the social aspects of things being glossed over, that's not an issue.

I would agree with you saying that the group is prejudiced towards bards, but that's just looking at things in the black and white. The DM for instance wouldn't ruin the game for me by deeming my skills inneffective, he just wouldn't have chosen a bard in the first place.

Perhaps part of the problem is my own view of it. Yeah, the song is +1 to hit. That's handy, not particularly powerful, but handy. The only problem then is... err... then what? Once IN a combat situation I really can't see things like tripping or disarming with a whip being effective when I can't afford to dedicate a good stat to STR. Am I then condemned to stand around looking sheepish until somebody goes down and I can stick a potion down their neck?

I mean, don't get me wrong, I AM going to play one, I guess I just need tactical advice as much as build advice. Oh, and somebody to crush my pessimism

 

[Luthien Greyspear]

In my campaign, the bard is frequently put forward as the MVP of the party, for a variety of reasons.

One, he can do EVERYTHING. He has 2 (3?) levels of rogue and an 18 INT, and has at least one skill rank in, literally, everything. He consistently backs up everyone he reasonably can, giving them the Assist Other benefits for skill checks (if he's not already the best at it).

Two, point for point, after the fighters, he has the highest damage output in the party. His combination of the harmony spell and Inspire courage guarantee +2 damage to every party member on every successful attack. 6 party members (not counting NPC's) with an average of 2 attacks per round equals 24 potential points of damage per round IN ADDITION to his actual attack rolls with the bow. Add on the save bonuses (dragonfear, dontcha know) and he's saved their bacon a lot.

Third, the jack@$$ has a HUGE bonus on bardic lore. He has the Obscure Knowledge feat (essentially, Skill Focus-Bardic Knowledge), plus the Intelligence, plus a Headband of Oghma. He makes it a point to do actual research in every city, to listen in on every adventurer's conversation he can find, and to roleplay a camaraderie with other (NPC) bards. This gives him bonuses on Gather Info, and gives him situational bonuses if he can actually remember the name of a particular NPC that would be an authoritative source on a subject. As a result of all this, the party is as prepared as I allow them to be, and no less. While I (of course) control the information flow, I do try to reward his efforts with SOME success, and the party benefits accordingly.

One thing you might want to consider as a role-playing hook is to synchronize your chosen religion with either the Clr/Wiz, the other Clr, or the Paladin. I assume that the Paladin and the Good Cleric will likely be allied if not worshipers of the same god, and having a professional storyteller helping them proselytize may pave the way for a lot of NPC cooperation or even conversion.

 

[Scratched_back]

A bard will almost never be considered a replacement for a "tank". You need to get that thought right out of your mind.

A bard is best at ranged attacks and not up close and personal.

I know man, I said that. I just mean that a build with SOME degree of combat capability would be my preference.

The fact that they can wear light armors without arcane spell failure is a plus but doesn't negate the lack of hitpoints. Rogues get the sneak attack damage which helps make them better melee than a bard, especially if they can get the foe flanked.

Meaning that I'm one up from the Wizard in melee, and even then, not if he's got Shocking Grasp memmed! So what do these bards do during combat?

 

[Infiniti2000]

Now however, the teasing has begun and I'm determined to play not only a Bard, but an effective one.

You'll just have to come face to face with the terms. Unless you can find the lost Make My Bard Not Suck Prc, you're done for.

 

[irdeggman]

I know man, I said that. I just mean that a build with SOME degree of combat capability would be my preference.


Meaning that I'm one up from the Wizard in melee, and even then, not if he's got Shocking Grasp memmed! So what do these bards do during combat?

Other than having a better BAB, AC and weapon selection and more hit points than a wizard?

They basically stand in front of the wizard like the cleric would or the fighter would be in front of the cleric.

A bard is a second tier warrior, actually more like a 2(-) when compared to the cleric.

As long as you are measuring our PC's success in terms of combat you will almost always fall short with a bard.

A bard with a longsword and short sword with TWF is much better in combat than a wizard - but he can't go toe-to-toe with anything more than simple monsters or he will end up dead real fast.

A bard also has some cure spells which helps when there aren't any clerics/druids around. In your situation - I wouldn't take those spells - you have enough band aids around so the bard doesn't need to fill that roll.

Again the Inspire Courage ability combined with some ranged attacks will make the PC real handy at the level you are playing at, epecially with extra music. Never sell that ability short, I don't know how many times I've used that in a game to great effect.

 

[irdeggman]

I do have trouble envisioning a true necromancy and a paladin in the same party though.

 

[Journeyman]

If you want an offensively oriented bard, your best bet would be to play an enchanter. With spell focus and greater spell focus, and early access to powerful spells like Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Suggestion, and Confusion, they can be very effective.

If you have access to the BoED (which is semi 3.5, iirc), the Words of Creation feat is very, very powerful for a bard, and would take care of any concerns about your song being too weak. It does have steep requirements, though, wouldn't be available until level 6 at the earliest, and would probably require you to play a caster/support bard rather than a melee type. If you do go that route, I would play a CG human, choose the first stat line, and put the 18 into charisma and the 16 into intelligence.

The problem you face isn't playing a melee bard, which is certainly doable, it's using a level 2 bard as the main tank for a level 4 party, which borders on the impossible. If you do get stuck with this, the only advice I can give is to take a look at the Snowflake Wardance feat in Frostburn, and pray you survive until you get Mirror Image.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

That 4 is a bit of a turn-off... although the rest of the line is surely tempting.

I'd probably take the third array.

Str 14 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 13 Wis 10 Cha 16

Human with Combat Expertise and Improved Disarm. Use a whip to annoy all weapon-using opponents while singing songs of humiliation.

I'd do improved trip first - the +4 is even more valuable because its to a stat check, not an attack roll. and once they are on the ground, you use your followup attack to disarm, with the bonus from the whip and the fact that the guy is prone. At 3rd level you can take improved disarm if you are losing more of the contests than you'd like, or take twf so you can keep a sickle in the off hand (also does trips) and threaten attacks of oppertunity.

Also, I would take the radical action of switching str and cha. you have 3 stat ups before you need a 16 cha, and bards don't have a lot of attack spells where your DC will matter. Focus more on utility and support spells (esp the complete adventurer one to raise your inspire courage by +1)