Help on Touch Attacks

[Lord Vangarel]

Ok, Dex applies to Ranged Touched attacks and I can understand that but does Strength apply to melee touch attacks and if so why? My reasoning is that Str adds to the attackers ability to overcome armour but a touch attack ignores armour.

Anyone have any insight on this please?

 

[Skinwalker]

Straight up rules, yes, strength applies. I can give a rough example as to why. Keep in mind, in this I'm just using descriptive imagery and not talking about actually initiating a grapple.

Imagine an arcane caster casts Shocking Grasp and reaches for his oppontent to deliver the deadly touch attack. To keep the crackling energy from landing home, the opponent grabs the caster's wrist and tries to force it away from him . If the caster has a high strength, he would better be able to force his way through. If he had a low strength, he would more easily be pushed aside.

Not a perfect example, I admit, but I hope it illustrates one way strength could be used to force one's way through whatever defenses are still availabe versus a touch attack.

Sidebar: Are touch attacks finessable? It would seem logical that they could be, but I don't remember any particular passage in the rules that says so.

 

[Lord Vangarel]

Hi Skinwalker

For that to work, strictly per the rules as I remember them, the opponent would have to have a Ready action to do so otherwise he couldn't react. While your description is nice imagery and in such a situation Strength would certainly be used a standard melee touch doesn't need Strength.

On a side note I don't see why touch attack can't be finessable and would certainly allow it. Although what I'm proposing kind of makes them automatically finessable as I think all touch attacks should use Dex to determine if the target is hit.

 

[nimisgod]

According to the Tome and Blood, pg 38, you can designate touch attacks to be weapon finesse-able.

 

[Hackenslash]

Hmmm......Str. bonus and touch attacks.

Well IMHO, I have always thought that even as far back as 1st and 2nd edition that the "Strength" bonus applies to all melee touch attacks due to the character being able to weild his/her weapon more effectively, as well as being about to penetrate defences more effectively too. So in that vain, you could say that the character is able to apply the stated Str. bonus to a melee touch attack because, they were able to "Grasp", "Touch", "Clutch", "Manipulate" their hands in such a s way as to effect their opponent with the stated attack and thus subsequenly cause damage. However, it does not seem correct that a character with a really high dex. bonus but poor str. bonus would have a harder time tring to touch someone in melee combat as surely they would be more nimble of foot and able to position themselves more effectively in order to "touch" their enemies in the first place. Anyhow, just a few thoughts, interesting point though....

 

[Skinwalker]

...the opponent would have to have a Ready action to do so otherwise he couldn't react.

I should know better than to use descriptive imagery in the rules forum. It always leads to trouble.
I'll re-state my point without the imagery - a strong person could more easily force their way through any active defenses that still counted against the touch attack. A weak person would have more difficulty forcing their way through in a similar manner.

On a side note I don't see why touch attack can't be finessable and would certainly allow it. Although what I'm proposing kind of makes them automatically finessable as I think all touch attacks should use Dex to determine if the target is hit.

If you wanted to run that as a house rule, I doubt you'd hear any complaints from arcane casters. In my experience, they tend to put a higher stat priority on Dex than Str. You may hear a few complaints from whomever you have running a cleric, though, especially if they rely on spells such as the vairous types of Inflict. Since they can wear heavy armor, I've usually seen their stats loaded with Str priority over Dex. In fact, this change could weaken any divine caster that swaps spells for Inflict as well.

 

[Pielorinho]

Here's a kind of backwards way of looking at it.

I'm no physicist, but isn't there a basic principle that speed*mass=force or something like that? To put it another way, a sling stone tossed at you underhand is going to hurt a lot less than one moving at you at 100 MPH: the faster it moves, the more damage it does.

Same thing with a fist. Someone who nudges you with a fist isn't going to hurt you nearly as badly as someone who strikes you with incredible speed with their fist. Faster the fist moves, more it hurts.

Got it? Move fast = hurt more.

Now, let's work backwards. High strength = hurt more, right? A significant part of why is that you're overcoming the inertia of your weapon to a greater degree: you get it moving faster, so that it hurts worse.

High strength=hurt more
Move fast=hurt more
High strength=move fast.

That might seem counterintuitive: you'd think that dex is what makes you move fast. I'd say that in battle, though, dex gives you precise movements; strength is what lets you get that axe or fist moving quickly.

With me so far? There's one more step.

When you're trying to hit someone, you can do it in a few ways: you can strike precisely for their unguarded areas, or you can attack so quickly that you either hit before they get their defenses up, or you can hit with such force that you bypass their defenses.

Striking precisely is the purview of weapon finesse. Striking with great speed is, as we've seen before, a function of strength. Breaking through defenses is also a function of speed.

And when you make a touch attack, normally you're trying to strike with such speed that they can't dodge out of the way. That's a strength function. If they have a deflection AC bonus, you also want to bypass that: that's also a function of strength.

Ergo: to make a touch attack connect, you want to be strong.

Told you it was all backwards.

Daniel

 

[Lord Vangarel]

I'm really up in the air on this one.

I really think it should be Dex but active defenses gets me thinking. What counts for Touch attacks? As far as I remeber it's 10 + Dex, Magic, and Misc such as Feats.

As far as I know none of these, except maybe feats, would actively block a touch attack. Magic deflects it, Dex dodges it, I guess a parry type feat to defend against this could exist but I can't remeber seeing one. Does anyone know of any?

Taking this further I would say Dex applies unless the target has some type of feat/item to help out in which case this would require another roll to resolve but what I don't know.

Anyone seen any rules dealing with this or does everyone just work with the standard rules?

 

[Hackenslash]

Excellent Explanation Pielorinho !!!!

I just read your post and I must admit to being very impressed as to the way you described the reason why a "Melee Touch" Attack should be effected by Strength Bonus. Yes I can envision the Higher Strength Character Breaking through the feeble warding attempts of his hapless pray as he touches him fully on the chest with a Shocking Grasp Spell. Cool !!! It does make sence and was sort of what I was tring to say in my own post but did not get as detailed. However, I am sure that we could even make an arguement for a "Synergy" type bonus from a High dex too, by the fact that the PC's are able to position them selves more effectively to make the strike in the first place. But then again, that would be stretching it a bit I think. Yes, I am quite happy with the rules the way they are, but it's cool when you get someone actually reasoning out the rule for you, so that you can apply it, with full confidence, effectively and more importantly, Fairly. Cheers All !!!