Help: Paladin putting group in danger...

[Stalker0]

As long as you explain to the character, that aura of courage doesn't take away your ability to make rational, logical retreats to fight another day, then let him play his character that way. If his character now mopes about feeling weak and cowardly that he ran, well thats fine. Some paladins are like that, taking unnormal risks, and often making irrational decisions when it comes to retreat vs. staying and fight. That's some of the paladin charm.

As long as this is a sign of this character, and not all his characters, then I say allow it. If it becomes a chronic problem, such as all his characters develop that suicidal tendency, which I've seen, then time for the talk.

 

[David Argall]

in/out of character?

I'm not sure if anything needs to be done here at all. If the player was acting in character, he is largely correct. Paladins should be rashy brave and only willing to retreat when forced into it [& not happy about it then].

If he was grumbling out of character about those 4-1 odds, he should be advised to see most any action movie and try to count the number the hero disposes of [or if he is math challenged, he can count the number of hairs on the hero's head that are disturbed by all this fighting.] He can also consult the grumblings of a number of game critics who insist high levels can stomp too many low levels.

 

[Capellan]

Have a scene with the Paladin walking home alone.

Four thugs try to intimidate him into giving them his gold.

When he refuses, have one of them say "Get him lads - there are four of us to one of him. No way he can stand up to us!"

Watch the Paladin then make mincemeat out of them (since of course, you've made sure that they're way weaker than he is).

The penny might drop, then. And if it doesn't ... the subdual ideas other people have mentioned could work well.

 

[Lurker37]

Seems to me that the problem is that the player has a skewed perception of what is expected of his character. The best way to address this is in character, in a positive way.

Have the Paladin who trainined him turn up, having heard reports of his actions. Have him greet the paladin warmly. If this part of the character's background isn't fully fleshed out, describe a few memories, and tell the player in no uncertain terms what warm memories his character has of this senior paladin, and how much he respects him.

Let them roleplaying catching up, as old friends, for several minutes.

Optionally, have a sparring session in which the superior kicks the player's butt, demonstrating that the Player isn't the combat god he thought he was, but keep it friendly, the superior offering words of encouragement, and giving pointers. At the end, have the superior mention that the player has great potential, but has yet to reach it.

Then have this NPC mention that he has heard reports of the player endangering his companions by refusing to yield to a superior opponent. Have him remind the player of the time and money the religion has spent training him, and of the hopes that they have for him. Sternly tell him that he is there to make a difference, NOT to recklessly sacrifice his life - or worse, endanger others - at the first opportunity. Let him gradually warm up, becoming slightly heated, but never actually lose his temper. Let the superior express disappointment in the character, but not anger.

Then - and this is VERY important - have the superior explain the difference between cowardice and discretion. Let the player know that the superior is still proud of him, and expects great things of him, but repeat that he has a long way to go before he is fully trained. Emphasise that he must always be mindful of his limitations, and those of his companions. Make it clear that it is no shame to fall back before an unbeatable foe, and that there is no glory in dying in a needless battle.

End with a positive note - maybe even giving him a non-magical trinket or medal - something with emotional significance, to show that they do in fact hold him in esteem.

In short, give him an in-character reason to change his behaviour, with a simultaneous asurance that he is still well-regarded, and that prudently withdrawing from battle will not discredit him. Once he understands that this change of behaviour is, in fact, expected of him by his superiors, his objections to it should evaporate. Presenting it in a positive light should reduce the risk of player bitterness or stubbornness obscuring the issue.

 

[Larry Fitz]

Actually I heard some things that others have glossed over. The Monk will take back what was stolen from him? So the Rogue robbed this guy and the Paladin is defending the rogue from him? What's going on there? Also to te people who contend that there are "evil" paladins or CG paladins, those are your own deviations, Wotc has forgotten nothing. There are no Paladins of evil gods in the rules WOTC has given us. There is a single NPC PrC in the DMG called the Blackguard which can be entered by being a fallen Paladin, but that's about it.

As to your player using his immunity to fear roleplay his character being an idiot, well I can't add anything to that discussion, though my favorite is the four thugs showing him the encounter from the opposite perspective.

 

[Lela]

The pouting thing is what is standing out to me. How old is he? What's the average age of the group?

It sounds like he pouts a lot.

Plus he'll be too busy throwing his usual you-killed-my-character tantrum to learn a lesson.

This kind of thing may need to be stepped on if it is a problem. If this is common, pull him aside and explain things to him. Nicely. You're trying to convince him you aren't against him. You can't do that if you're coming off as confrontational.

Here's the tricky part. What happens if he doesn't make any effort to change? Well, that's up to you and your group make-up (if he's married to someone in the group for example). But one thing must be clear: if you tell him that something will happen if he doesn't shape up, you MUST stick with it. It's the best thing for the group if you do. And for him.

 

[Fenes 2]

Have a scene with the Paladin walking home alone.

Four thugs try to intimidate him into giving them his gold.

When he refuses, have one of them say "Get him lads - there are four of us to one of him. No way he can stand up to us!"

Watch the Paladin then make mincemeat out of them (since of course, you've made sure that they're way weaker than he is).

The penny might drop, then. And if it doesn't ... the subdual ideas other people have mentioned could work well.

That was the first thing I thought about when I read the first post. Show the player that his paladin is more than a match for 4 weak guys.

I'd force the penny to drop after that - be blunt, "told ya so" "See?" etc.

 

[Lela]

One thing I forgot. Fear is an emotion, right? Well, four Vulcan supply ships don't rush into a fight with one Klingon (sp?) Bird of Pray.

Just because he doesn't feel fear doesn't mean he can't use logic or common sense.

It's the Lawful Good != Lawful Stupid thing with pictures. Well not really, but you get the point. Maybe he'll better understand it if he hears it this way.

 

[Lela]

. . .In short, give him an in-character reason to change his behavior, with a simultaneous assurance that he is still well-regarded, and that prudently withdrawing from battle will not discredit him. Once he understands that this change of behavior is, in fact, expected of him by his superiors, his objections to it should evaporate. Presenting it in a positive light should reduce the risk of player bitterness or stubbornness obscuring the issue.

Maybe a personal story or two about the same issue. "When I felt fear flee from me for the first time I thought nothing could touch me. Like a common adventurer, I felt myself invincible, untouchable.

"I marched forth to do battle with darkness, winning often. You don't find many truly great evils on the road and I thought myself to be great. Somehow I knew that one day I would bring the world to Pelor and destroy all who oppose him. There was no way I couldn't succeed. After all, I had conquered fear.

"Then one day I came upon a dark secreted cave. Likely another evil waiting inside. I'd done this before, you see. Kobalds, goblins, orcs, even ogres. All had fallen easily before my might. Once a few bugbears gave me some problems but no more. I had learned their tricks and they began to fall easily before my sword.

"So I went in, quietly at first. I was convinced that one day I would overhear a plan to destroy the world--or at least a nearby town--using this tactic," the powerful knight shakes his head. "Oh, I was a fool then. As if my armor alone wasn't making a racket louder than a halfling's stories.

"Aw, but I wasn't just any adventurer. By no means. I was called of Pelor! Nothing could stand in my path.

"So, like that common farm boy, I rushed headlong into the cave--quietly mind you," a note of sarcasm and a wink here. "To my disappointment, I found nothing. Nothing at all. How could I rid the world of evil when evil wouldn't be found?

"While I was pondering this profound question, evil found me.

"Two elves dropped in front of me. It was dark and all I could make out was their pointed ears and lithe body but I knew elves when I saw them. And, ow but the taint of evil was strong. Very strong. As they closed, I couldn't help thinking how sad it was that they numbered only two. Surely I could handle more.

"Well, my young friend, as I'm sure you can imagine, two was more than enough.

"I quickly unwrapped my Everburning Torch and let it fall to the ground. For the first time I got a good look at my foes. Their skin was dark, almost black. Their hair jet white, flowing in a mane behind their heads, halfway down the spine of their backs.

"Drow!

"My luck had finally one out! I would finally face a darkness worthy of a Paladin of Pelor. I would finally win glory for the side of righteousness!

"I felt no fear and had no desire to flee. After all, even as a boy facing down mere bullies seeking to merly bloody my noise I had been somewhat afraid. But here their was nothing. They weren't even bullies. They were nothing. And they would soon fall to Pelor's wrath.

"They moved stunningly fast. The sound of my torch hitting the cave floor just began to ring in my ears when the lights went out. An empty sphere of darkness surrounded the torch that had always served me so well. Then I felt a blade strike across my arm, fallowed quickly by another. I hadn't even begun swinging yet and already I was hit twice. No, three times!

"Now any common fool would have run in terror then. And they would likely have let him go. It was clear they weren't planning to stay in this area and would have enjoyed watching a 'lesser race' run screaming. They had even been so kind as to start with my arms, leaving my legs free to scramble back out of the cave.

"But I wasn't a common fool. I was a fool without fear. I knew I was going to die but wasn't afraid of it. Even the thought of no longer helping others didn't frighten me. It even occurred to me that no terror crossed my mind when I realized that I would no longer be here to keep the world safe; that it would fall into evil and darkness without me to keep it firmly in the light.

"Still I did not flee. I had no reason to. Always when I was a child I ran when scared. I knew no other reason to do so.

"No doubt surprised to see me still standing before them--swinging back with the terrible power of Pelor's smiting touch--they began cutting deep. I found myself on the cave floor, my head lying next to my blackened torch, staring up into nothing. I was surrounded by darkness. And still I wasn't afraid.

"But that didn't change the fact that my life blood was pouring out of me. I was going to die and there was nothing I could do to stop it. I was going to die with the sound of my enemy's laughter ringing in my ears.

"I was angry then. Something rare for me. I've since found that anger is more often a product of fear then that which is brought forth for a righteous cause and was thus something that I usually lacked.

"Anger did not allow me to stand. Did not allow me to fight. Did not allow me to even slow the tide of blood from my gut. All it allowed me to do was recognize that I needed help. I realized I wasn't angry at the now fading evil laughter. I was angry at myself.

"I needed help and I called on Pelor to give it to me. I called on him to allow me the strength to fight my foes. To drive them back.

"He answered my prayer.

"Not in a way I expected though. The blood flow slowed, then ceased. I was no longer dying. But nor could I stand.

"He had allowed me to beat the wound that was killing me. He had allowed me life but, it seemed, he had allowed the Drow escape.

"I did not understand. Why would Pelor leave me alive but not allow me to stop that which was evil? Why would the illumination of the world not want me to stop that which seeked to bring darkness?

"I called out to him for an answer. I called long into the night, lost in the black dark void that surround me. I learned that even without fear, Darkness can drive a man mad. I learned that I could not drive it away on my own. I learned that I couldn't stand on my own all the time. That I needed help to go on. But still I wondered why Pelor didn't help me stop it.

"Suddenly there was light again. My eyes burned with sudden shooting pain as I found myself looking straight into what seemed the purist light imaginable. I thought Pelor himself had come to question me. Come to demand why I couldn't understand his will.

"I was half wrong.

"The realization came to me that I had been acting rashly. I had not thought to understand the strength of my foes and had not used my intelligence to serve me where fear no longer could," the older warrior puts his had on the younger's shoulder. "I had been staring into the light of a torch. The true revelation came as I climbed back out into the early morning light, the sun just fully letting go of the earth's embrace.

"The removal of fear is a great blessing, my friend. But we must be wary of it's absence.

"Just as others must overcome their fear, we must overcome our lack of it."

- - -

Thought this might need it's own post. Didn't mean to go on that long. Better get to bed.

 

[Maldur]

Lela, that was awesome.

Very good, a lesson for every young paladin.
Do you mind if I use that inthe education of paladins in my game?