Help: Paladin putting group in danger...

[jdavis]

Hmm... Sorry to interrupt all the back-patting, but the whole situation doesn't sit well with me.

There are plenty of situations in which the party might deserve to get smacked for arrogance - trying to go after a powerful wizard in his home, deciding to start an all-out war with a guild of assassins, wanton dragon hunting...

But I always despised the whole "Single enemy walks into a bar, and slaps the party around showing them just how insignificant they are" deal. It's what always happens in bad anime.
I have yet to meet anyone who thinks the primary goal of a D&D game is handing out lessons in humility, and I don't think it's unreasonable if some player doesn't feel happy about being lorded over by an NPC. In particular if it wasn't something the character brought on himself, but the consequence of the backstory of one of the other PC's.

Not to mention that, given all the talk about humility and arrogance, "letting the party spell up" and "taking a tanglefoot bag to the chest" doesn't exactly sound humble... By the rules people are advocating here, the arrogant jerk deserves to be taken down by four people he thought were below him more than the Paladin does for thinking 4 against 1 shouldn't be bad odds. (Although it does sound like the guy maybe needs a heads-up on how Aura of Courage works...)

For that matter, this kind of approach ("Go ahead, fool, take your best shot... Bwa ha hah...") completely ruins whathever verisimilitude D&D has left, because in a sane world, no matter how powerful you are, you don't let someone with a greatsword take the first shot because you know you have the AC and hit points to take it.

I wouldn't call this a bad anime plot, this is the same plot from hundreds of different movies, books and TV shows. I don't know what is planned but if you went by the typical formula then the characters should run across the NPC over and over until finally they get a plan together and get enough training and experience to beat him. Ok that sort of sounds like the Karate Kid movies but it is basically the same formula that is repeated over and over in all sorts of media and in adventures everywhere, the powerful NPC that the characters are striving to beat is a tried and true plot device.

 

[Lela]

I like the ideas (especially Lela's!) about the mentor teaching some.

Well, I didn't come up with the idea. I just popped in a story/dialog for use.

I think it wouldn't be of as much use in this situation though. Something new Paladins should (or would) be told before they graduated or for players who are less likely to pout (can anyone tell I hate this?) when they feel they might be being ganged up on or singled out.

Then again, if it were just handed to him as something Myrmidon found off the intranet--off hand, "Check out how cool this is! "--it might work better.

It's that whole aprouching a ref or umpire and standing to his side rather then face to face. You're a team trying solve a problem then rather than a coach telling the umpire he doesn't know what he's doing. Works a lot better that way.

Ok that sort of sounds like the Karate Kid movies

That was a great series (until the villian in #3; who was over teh top). A character truely trying to improve and change his life who just can't figure out how to do it. I could relate to the guy. Something I can't do often.

The fact that it copies the Karate Kid movies is a plus for me.

Now, if a supped up NPC comes in and woops the characters butts too often I could see problem. But every once in a while is okay with me*. Not that that has anything to do with the thread topic though.


*In this case I define once-in-a-while as every four to six sessions as okay. Six to be on the safe side.

 

[Lela]

Double Post

 

[jdavis]

If the problem is that the player is a goof or a whiner then Mr. Miagi with the wax on wax off speach probably wouldn't help. Perhaps a one on one with the guy explaining that he needs to be more careful or everyone will end up getting killed, or maybe even finding some interesting writings (such as some of the post here) and getting him to look at the character in a new and interesting way, play up the whole working to make the character better part and play down the your a idiot part.

I hate playing with people who take the game too serious and who think people are out to get them, it's just a game for everyones enjoyment, if one person is taking away from everybody elses enjoyment then that person is not worth having around.

 

[Rashak Mani]

DM fudging is almost expected by players... that is why in some campaigns I dont fudge dice... I roll them in front of them. Avoid these kind of gimmicks and antics.

Players get terrified of the idea that I wont fudge dice to get them off the hook if something goes wrong. It really gives them a better idea of what they are facing... open dice rolls can have a "scare" effect.

Of course you can still fudge discreetly... say you were power attacking by 2 and you miss by two

Open dice rolling does demand a choice of well balanced encounters... if you figure midway during an encounter that it wasnt balanced its much harder to balance it without fudging

 

[Sulimo]

Ahh...how familiar is this. Our group experienced something similar with our Lawful Stupid Paladin of Torm just last weekend. In a Realms game we're teleported into the middle of Thay, where immediately we see in the distance we see an army of undead being lead by Thayan Wizards and Knights. Whilst pretty much the rest of the group hides, the damn Paladin stands out there to take these guys on, which pretty much forced the rest of us to join in the fight.

Sure...we beat the damn Thayans. But thats besides the point. Damn Lawful Stupid Paladins.

 

[jdavis]

DM fudging is almost expected by players... that is why in some campaigns I dont fudge dice... I roll them in front of them. Avoid these kind of gimmicks and antics.

Players get terrified of the idea that I wont fudge dice to get them off the hook if something goes wrong. It really gives them a better idea of what they are facing... open dice rolls can have a "scare" effect.

Of course you can still fudge discreetly... say you were power attacking by 2 and you miss by two

Open dice rolling does demand a choice of well balanced encounters... if you figure midway during an encounter that it wasnt balanced its much harder to balance it without fudging

Rule number one of DM rule fudging: The players can never find out that you fudged any roll or went easy on them for any reason, once they find out it changes how they play the game, for all the DM's out there who have been forced to fudge rolls or change encounters on the fly, deny you did it, do not let on that anything odd happened or that you went easy on them, sometimes it is better to let the party die on a dice roll than have the players think you will fudge them out of any situation they stumble in to. Sometimes the DM has to make decisions to save a encounter or make the game more interesting, but once a party thinks that the DM isn't going to let them die no matter how bad they roll or what stupid stunt they pull then you have a real problem.

 

[reapersaurus]

While I don't know enough about the party make-up in this case to render an opinion, I think I'm going to start a new 'group', Bothered About Badly Played Paladins.

In general, I just can't stand when someone dunders about playing a paladin who just Doesn't Get It.

 

[Lela]

Sure...we beat the damn Thayans. But thats besides the point. Damn Lawful Stupid Paladins.

That leads me to think your DM fudged some rolls for you (though I hope he'd never admit it). Unless you're really high level that is.

Then again, if it were me, at this point you've taken down an army. An army that it took some high level wizards a lot of time and XP to create.

Guess who'd be after you next.

 

[Fenes 2]

Rule number one of DM rule fudging: The players can never find out that you fudged any roll or went easy on them for any reason, once they find out it changes how they play the game, for all the DM's out there who have been forced to fudge rolls or change encounters on the fly, deny you did it, do not let on that anything odd happened or that you went easy on them, sometimes it is better to let the party die on a dice roll than have the players think you will fudge them out of any situation they stumble in to. Sometimes the DM has to make decisions to save a encounter or make the game more interesting, but once a party thinks that the DM isn't going to let them die no matter how bad they roll or what stupid stunt they pull then you have a real problem.

This rule only applies if you have players that would try to exploit such fudging. I flat-out tell the players that I don't kill off any PC without a warning, and that if a PC dies then it will be after the player decided to go ahead with his chosen course. I also tell the players that I don't kill PCs for keeping in character. People who try to abuse that by playing PCs that are fearless and attack everything on sight will not be invited back.

If I approve of a PC that will, f.e., attack any undead on sight, then the player can count on me not to make an encounter that will require said PC to voluntarily flee from a lich or die with no other option. (In such an encounter I would probably, however, arrange for alternate means to escape, be that the party knocking out the PC and fleeing with the unconscious body, or a fear spell.)