[Help Plz] Do grapple checks include penalties/bonuses from defenseive fighting, etc?

Skaros

First Post
For instance, my 8th level monk has a high strength, and focuses on grappling.

The grapple check is done as a melee attack, and the formula mentions: d20 + BAB + STR Bonus

What if he is fighting defensively? It would apply to the touch attack to initialiate, obviously, but what about any grapple checks made with successive attacks that round?

What if he chooses to fight defensively next round, while grappling? Can he do it if all he is doing is making grapple checks to deal unarmed damage with each of his attacks?

More specifically, my monk is an earth genasi, and it would be great to pick up and utilize the Stone Colossus feat from Races of Faerun in cases where he really overmatches his opponent. The feat allows you to take as much as a -5 penalty on attacks for the round, and get a +5 NA bonus in return.

Legal?

Thanks for the thoughts,

Skaros
 
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Camarath

Pale Master Tarrasque
Skaros said:
For instance, my 8th level monk has a high strength, and focuses on grappling.

The grapple check is done as a melee attack, and the formula mentions: d20 + BAB + STR Bonus

What if he is fighting defensively? It would apply to the touch attack to initialiate, obviously, but what about any grapple checks made with successive attacks that round?
Grapple checks are not attacks they only "take the place of an attack" so the fighting defensively penalty would not apply to them.

Skaros said:
What if he chooses to fight defensively next round, while grappling? Can he do it if all he is doing is making grapple checks to deal unarmed damage with each of his attacks?
From SRD
Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action: You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for the same round.

Since in a grapple you are not attacking only making opposed grapple checks, you can not use Fighting Defensively, Expertise or Stone Colossus (not sure about this one) since you need to attack to get the benefit of these abilities. Increased AC would not help you in a grapple any way.

Skaros said:
More specifically, my monk is an earth genasi, and it would be great to pick up and utilize the Stone Colossus feat from Races of Faerun in cases where he really overmatches his opponent. The feat allows you to take as much as a -5 penalty on attacks for the round, and get a +5 NA bonus in return.

Legal?

Thanks for the thoughts,

Skaros
I am not sure about the use of this feat but I think you can only use it when you make an attack. If you could post this feat it would help me give you a definitive opinion on it's use.
 

Camarath

Pale Master Tarrasque
Sorry forgot this option.
From SRD
Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a –4 penalty on such attacks.
You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.

Wile using this option you could make attacks and thus use those feats and abilities to increase your AC. The increased AC would not affect your grapple checks.

Sorry about that, I was thinking the about the "Damage Your Opponent" grapple option which uses an opposed grapple check and forgot about this one.
 

reapersaurus

First Post
I consider grapple checks to be a melee attack.
Therefore, Power Attack would apply to them, and fighting defensively, also.

If you consider them seperate from an attack just because it's referred to as a "grapple check", than you're inviting problems such as getting a penalty that doesn't hurt you (fighting defensively) or taking a penalty and getting no benefit (Power Attack).
 

Camarath

Pale Master Tarrasque
reapersaurus said:
I consider grapple checks to be a melee attack.
Therefore, Power Attack would apply to them, and fighting defensively, also.

If you consider them seperate from an attack just because it's referred to as a "grapple check", than you're inviting problems such as getting a penalty that doesn't hurt you (fighting defensively) or taking a penalty and getting no benefit (Power Attack).
From SRD
If You’re Grappling
When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses

"In the place of" means they are not attacks. On actions taken "in place of each of your attacks" you can not use feats and abilities that modify your attacks. But there are two primary way of damaging your opponent one of which is an attack the other is not.

From SRD
Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a –4 penalty on such attacks.
You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.

This is an attack so you can use abilities that modify your attacks. I forgot this option when making my first post.

From SRD
Damage Your Opponent: While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a –4 penalty on your grapple check.
Exception: Monks deal more damage on an unarmed strike than other characters, and the damage is lethal. However, they can choose to deal their damage as nonlethal damage when grappling without taking the usual –4 penalty for changing lethal damage to nonlethal damage.

This is not an attack but a special grapple option. So you can not use abilities that modify your attacks when using this option.

You can also preform these action in place of your attacks.

From SRD
Escape from Grapple: You can escape a grapple by winning an opposed grapple check in place of making an attack. You can make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check if you so desire, but this requires a standard action. If more than one opponent is grappling you, your grapple check result has to beat all their individual check results to escape. (Opponents don’t have to try to hold you if they don’t want to.) If you escape, you finish the action by moving into any space adjacent to your opponent(s).
Pin Your Opponent: You can hold your opponent immobile for 1 round by winning an opposed grapple check (made in place of an attack). Once you have an opponent pinned, you have a few options available to you (see below).
Break Another’s Pin: If you are grappling an opponent who has another character pinned, you can make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you break the hold that the opponent has over the other character. The character is still grappling, but is no longer pinned.

None of these options are attacks but they can all be preformed in the place of attack wile in a grapple.

Here is another option that is IMO unclear whether it is an actual attack or not.

From SRD
Use Opponent’s Weapon: If your opponent is holding a light weapon, you can use it to attack him. Make an opposed grapple check (in place of an attack). If you win, make an attack roll with the weapon with a –4 penalty (doing this doesn’t require another action).
You don’t gain possession of the weapon by performing this action
 

Moonglum

First Post
Re: Re: [Help Plz] Do grapple checks include penalties/bonuses from defenseive fighting, etc?

Camarath said:
I am not sure about the use of this feat but I think you can only use it when you make an attack. If you could post this feat it would help me give you a definitive opinion on it's use.

Stone Colossus requires the attack or full attack action as stated in Races of Faerun pg. 169.
 

Skaros

First Post
Re: Re: Re: [Help Plz] Do grapple checks include penalties/bonuses from defenseive fighting, etc?

Moonglum said:


Stone Colossus requires the attack or full attack action as stated in Races of Faerun pg. 169.

Yes...and while grappling you can make iterative grapple checks in place of melee attacks during a full attack action, right?

Another question in the same vein....my monk has the Amulet of Mighty Fists +1 (+1 enhancement bonus on unarmed attacks). Does it apply on grapple checks to damage the enemy?

Skaros
 

Camarath

Pale Master Tarrasque
Re: Re: Re: Re: [Help Plz] Do grapple checks include penalties/bonuses from defenseive fighting, etc

Skaros said:
Yes...and while grappling you can make iterative grapple checks in place of melee attacks during a full attack action, right?
Yes, but it is not an actual full attack action. And some grapple check options are standard actions or move actions so you can not do them in place of attacks.
Skaros said:
Another question in the same vein....my monk has the Amulet of Mighty Fists +1 (+1 enhancement bonus on unarmed attacks). Does it apply on grapple checks to damage the enemy?

Skaros
It will not add to grapple checks. It will add to your damage. If you used the Attack Your Opponent option it will add to those attacks.
 

Skaros

First Post
Camarath said:
Yes, but it is not an actual full attack action. And some grapple check options are standard actions or move actions so you can not do them in place of attacks.

So, well, couldn't a grappler misuse the system a bit by declaring he is "fighting defensively", gaining an AC bonus, but then only making opposed grapple checks to do damage, where the penalties don't apply?

If the argument is that you can't fight defensively unless you make attacks, the savvy grappler could make a single attack, and make the rest of the grapple checks (2 equally valid ways of doing damage in grappling).

It will not add to grapple checks. It will add to your damage. If you used the Attack Your Opponent option it will add to those attacks.

So the effects of bless, bane, greater magic fang, amulet of mighty fists, recitation, harmony, etc, also don't apply when dealing damage through grapple checks?

I'm just trying to flesh out this gray area so I fully understand grapple, and don't have to waste time on this during games....since I'm playing a monk that grapples often AND running a different game where monsters grapple often.

Skaros
 

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