Olgar Shiverstone
Legend
Privateer said:
Actually, a rogue can get a sneak attack on every attack that meets the requirements, which is why TWF is such a good deal for rogues.
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HELP! Rogue/Ranger Tiefling too powerful?!
- Thread starter Blasphemonkey
- Start date
Actually, a rogue can get a sneak attack on every attack that meets the requirements, which is why TWF is such a good deal for rogues.
You mention youre only 6th level. You know that tiefling has an ECL +1 right? Meaning he should only have 5 actual levels in classes. It appears hes unabashadly used the 'ol 1 ranger trick for 2wf and Ambidexterity, that leaves 4 rogue levels. When you say 4d6 sneak attack damage are you referring to the damage from both hits?
Keep in mind that his total attack bonus should not be very high. I count +3 for rogue levels, +1 for the ranger level, and -2 to for dual-wielding shortswords. Thats only +2, even with 20 dex and wpn finesse thats only +7 to hit. Your 6th level fighter should have at least +10 and 2 attacks by now.
I've written extensively on the "power" of the bat wings a tiefling can gain. First of all, its a rather costly venture in terms of feats. Secondly, the flight gained is very weak. It limits you to your regular speed (30ft.) and the maneuverability begins at "Poor" I believe. If you look up Flight in the DMG, youll have a good idea of what he can and cannot do, I believe he is about as maneuverable as a Wyvern. Every turn he is in flight he must move, he can't just hover. Go over the flight rules a few times yourself, then explain to him (and the group) about the limitations. Don't let him treat it as if he has a permanent "Fly" spell cast on himself.
While he may be a high-damager in your campaign, he almost assuredly doesn't have the hit points to go for too long. Someone as frightening as your player might draw a lot of attention from the monsters/NPCs, I wouldnt do it in a mean "Im gonna get you" way, but honestly, if he is the most threatening PC, hes gonna get focus-fired.
As far as prcs, keep in mind that they are all optional. Now if you had planned on letting them in your campaign, and you had planned on letting in shadowdancers, its still OK. Like you said, no reason to overly punish the guy, but joining an organization is an unwritten requirement in many prcs. Perhaps they think his visage too otherworldly, so he must purchase/find a hat of disguise, or maybe they have some work for him to do to prove himself first. At any rate, look to 3.5 to clarify how many shadows he can have, and probably the full power of Hide in Plain Sight. It shouldnt be much longer now...
Technik
Keep in mind that his total attack bonus should not be very high. I count +3 for rogue levels, +1 for the ranger level, and -2 to for dual-wielding shortswords. Thats only +2, even with 20 dex and wpn finesse thats only +7 to hit. Your 6th level fighter should have at least +10 and 2 attacks by now.
I've written extensively on the "power" of the bat wings a tiefling can gain. First of all, its a rather costly venture in terms of feats. Secondly, the flight gained is very weak. It limits you to your regular speed (30ft.) and the maneuverability begins at "Poor" I believe. If you look up Flight in the DMG, youll have a good idea of what he can and cannot do, I believe he is about as maneuverable as a Wyvern. Every turn he is in flight he must move, he can't just hover. Go over the flight rules a few times yourself, then explain to him (and the group) about the limitations. Don't let him treat it as if he has a permanent "Fly" spell cast on himself.
While he may be a high-damager in your campaign, he almost assuredly doesn't have the hit points to go for too long. Someone as frightening as your player might draw a lot of attention from the monsters/NPCs, I wouldnt do it in a mean "Im gonna get you" way, but honestly, if he is the most threatening PC, hes gonna get focus-fired.
As far as prcs, keep in mind that they are all optional. Now if you had planned on letting them in your campaign, and you had planned on letting in shadowdancers, its still OK. Like you said, no reason to overly punish the guy, but joining an organization is an unwritten requirement in many prcs. Perhaps they think his visage too otherworldly, so he must purchase/find a hat of disguise, or maybe they have some work for him to do to prove himself first. At any rate, look to 3.5 to clarify how many shadows he can have, and probably the full power of Hide in Plain Sight. It shouldnt be much longer now...
Technik
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ArcOfCorinth
First Post
Throw him against some barbarians and rogues. He won't get that sneak attack in and they'll crush him. Hell, a barbarian in an enclosed area will rough him up good.
Secondly, you need to house rule out his shadow making minions. Its just stupid. That's a problem you've created yourself. I'm not trying to bash you or anything here, just being honest.
How's his Will save? Wouldn't be too surprising for some cleric of a good deity to concentrate his spells on the obviously fiendish beast that's appearing out of nowhere and decimating his allies. A blindness spell would drop the tiefling down to a commoner's level.
If he's hogging the show, then its only fair to hold him back every now and then. Just don't always hold him back and never let a pattern emerge.
Secondly, you need to house rule out his shadow making minions. Its just stupid. That's a problem you've created yourself. I'm not trying to bash you or anything here, just being honest.
How's his Will save? Wouldn't be too surprising for some cleric of a good deity to concentrate his spells on the obviously fiendish beast that's appearing out of nowhere and decimating his allies. A blindness spell would drop the tiefling down to a commoner's level.
If he's hogging the show, then its only fair to hold him back every now and then. Just don't always hold him back and never let a pattern emerge.
BiggusGeekus
That's Latin for "cool"
Tell the player he is kicking complete and total buttocks and the rest of the group isn't seeing much action. Tell the player you don't want to have to do anything stupid like throw in a subplot of evil plant based light-magic wizards to ruin his day. Tell him it is your fault for allowing the wings in the first place and not understanding what they can do. Tell hte player you would like a comprimise.
In the next game session you would like to fudge a hit where the player took irreperalble damage to one of his wings. It can only be healed via a wish or miracle spell. In the meantime the player can use the wings for feather fall but not flying. Allow him to glide, he'll fall down as if under feather fall but he'll have the equivalent of 30' "movement". Make it very, very clear that the player can't use his wings for upward thrust.
After you do that: don't let wish or miracle into your game until the players can cast it themselves.
Hope this helps.
In the next game session you would like to fudge a hit where the player took irreperalble damage to one of his wings. It can only be healed via a wish or miracle spell. In the meantime the player can use the wings for feather fall but not flying. Allow him to glide, he'll fall down as if under feather fall but he'll have the equivalent of 30' "movement". Make it very, very clear that the player can't use his wings for upward thrust.
After you do that: don't let wish or miracle into your game until the players can cast it themselves.
Hope this helps.
Hiding, even in plain sight, is a skill check that requires a.. erm.. is it standard or move equivalent... a "non-free" action. That means doing it in combat isn't terribly unbalancing as it's taking up precious rounds. Remaining hidden and unnoticed slows down movement (without -20 or so to the check), so the tiefling rogue ranger shadow dancer will be close to stabbity range enough to make it very dangerous for him on a regular basis.
Dual wielding rogues are hardly a new thing, they balance the massive damage output with the knowledge that if they don't kill whatever they've thoroughly annoyed with Sneak Attacks, it'll pound them. A tiefling character, with 1 hit die below the group norm (due to ECL), is going to suffer from this even more than a regular ranger rogue. Also, unless one of those weapons he uses is a defending weapon, he's lowering his defense without a buckler (barring use of feats that restrict twfers to fighting with one hand in exchange for ac).. so he's even more of a pickle if he doesn't auto kill his targets.
Two weapon fighting (erm Ambidex now I suppose) also causes a penalty to hit, something that a ranger can deal with much better than a ranger / rogue... Meaning the guy will be risking low defense in exchange for hitting less but doing more damage, and getting more attention, when he does so.
On the whole, this tiefling ranger / rogue doesn't need that much to keep him in line with the rest of the group powerwise.. Just things that hit hard, and don't insta die from a sneak attack in the surprise round and the possible extra 2-3 in the first round. On paper, and against average foes, he might be a killing machine, but the first time he encounters serious resistance, and is possibly pasted, the player's mindset will shift in a manner that will keep him from ninja-flip-out-blendering into every combat.
oh, and I'm surprised he invested two feats to get wings.. that couldn't have helped him powerwise (again, more reinforcement for thinking he's a-ok as is.) and secondly, aren't rangers getting Hide in Plain Sight in 3.5? If he's devoted to the ranger, he may not even want to bother with the Shadow Dancer. Just a thought.
As for suggestions - not saying constructs and undead, but how about elementals, most things with blindsense and tremorsense, and scent skills. If this tiefling isn't flying (and fly hiding must be incredibly hard), an earth elemental knows exactly where he is. If the tiefling is alive and has been on the road, your average magic beasty lion with the scent feats from Savage Species knows exactly where he is within 60 ft. If he's facing a dragon, or something with concealment, he's boned.
Dual wielding rogues are hardly a new thing, they balance the massive damage output with the knowledge that if they don't kill whatever they've thoroughly annoyed with Sneak Attacks, it'll pound them. A tiefling character, with 1 hit die below the group norm (due to ECL), is going to suffer from this even more than a regular ranger rogue. Also, unless one of those weapons he uses is a defending weapon, he's lowering his defense without a buckler (barring use of feats that restrict twfers to fighting with one hand in exchange for ac).. so he's even more of a pickle if he doesn't auto kill his targets.
Two weapon fighting (erm Ambidex now I suppose) also causes a penalty to hit, something that a ranger can deal with much better than a ranger / rogue... Meaning the guy will be risking low defense in exchange for hitting less but doing more damage, and getting more attention, when he does so.
On the whole, this tiefling ranger / rogue doesn't need that much to keep him in line with the rest of the group powerwise.. Just things that hit hard, and don't insta die from a sneak attack in the surprise round and the possible extra 2-3 in the first round. On paper, and against average foes, he might be a killing machine, but the first time he encounters serious resistance, and is possibly pasted, the player's mindset will shift in a manner that will keep him from ninja-flip-out-blendering into every combat.
oh, and I'm surprised he invested two feats to get wings.. that couldn't have helped him powerwise (again, more reinforcement for thinking he's a-ok as is.) and secondly, aren't rangers getting Hide in Plain Sight in 3.5? If he's devoted to the ranger, he may not even want to bother with the Shadow Dancer. Just a thought.
As for suggestions - not saying constructs and undead, but how about elementals, most things with blindsense and tremorsense, and scent skills. If this tiefling isn't flying (and fly hiding must be incredibly hard), an earth elemental knows exactly where he is. If the tiefling is alive and has been on the road, your average magic beasty lion with the scent feats from Savage Species knows exactly where he is within 60 ft. If he's facing a dragon, or something with concealment, he's boned.
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heimdall
Dwarven Guardian
If he doesn't listen to reason and you have to play hard ball... what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
His wings, if he's flashing 'em about, is sure to draw attention. Nothing like having a half-orc or some other "sinister" race with 6 or 7 levels in rogue hunting him as a trophy. Especially if they attack him in town where's not expecting it. Sneak attack with surprise. Toss in a bit of poison or shoot an arrow into him from within 30'.
His stalker, after the attack, is going to slip away. Set up a diversion to aid the stalker. Stalker stays a persistent part of the adventure until he shapes up. Remember, characters who stand out will draw attention to themselves.
His wings, if he's flashing 'em about, is sure to draw attention. Nothing like having a half-orc or some other "sinister" race with 6 or 7 levels in rogue hunting him as a trophy. Especially if they attack him in town where's not expecting it. Sneak attack with surprise. Toss in a bit of poison or shoot an arrow into him from within 30'.
His stalker, after the attack, is going to slip away. Set up a diversion to aid the stalker. Stalker stays a persistent part of the adventure until he shapes up. Remember, characters who stand out will draw attention to themselves.
Blasphemonkey
First Post
Kerrwyn said:
Thanks for the help everyone, now some responses from a few:
All the "person" spells won't work, because he's technically not human, an "outsider," but I see what you mean, and Hold Monster will work just as well...most enemies will be able to see he's not quite human.
I thought that every enemy that the shadow kills also rises as a shadow. That's one of my main concerns.
(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
In a few levels his Tumble skill will let him avoid AoOs.
Make him play a 3.5 ranger instead
That way he either has to take another level of ranger (giving up sneak attack dice) or spend a feat.
PS how the heck is he getting full-round attacks that often? With his low hp and low AC, he should get creamed.
Make him play a 3.5 ranger instead
That way he either has to take another level of ranger (giving up sneak attack dice) or spend a feat.PS how the heck is he getting full-round attacks that often? With his low hp and low AC, he should get creamed.
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