-
NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.
HELP! Rogue/Ranger Tiefling too powerful?!
- Thread starter Blasphemonkey
- Start date
(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
Make him re-roll the stats, or better yet use point-buy, so you never need to accuse someone of cheating. I really think he was cheating, based on his high hit point rolls, etc.
Actually, aside from the extra level of fighter and the high stats, his character build isn't terribly fantastic.
The bat wings are great for flavor, and sometimes help him get past obastacles, but don't do jack for him in combat. I happen to love that feat for flavor, but with another feat as a prereq...2 feats is a steep price for avg maneuverability and bat wings that scream to your enemies "shoot me now! I'm a fiend!".
Shadowdancer isn't unbalancing once he gets there unless you allow him to somehow aquire an army of shadows
I'd be interested to see how he interacts with the first paladin led party he runs into anyway!
As was pointed out, the guy's obviously going to lord it over the dwarven fighter....even if they had exactly the same race, class, and feat selection, thanks to very favorable stats.
Sounds like you have things figured out....just fix the few discrepencies, decide whether the disparity in stats is really such a terrible thing in your group, and get on with the adventuring!
Skaros
The bat wings are great for flavor, and sometimes help him get past obastacles, but don't do jack for him in combat. I happen to love that feat for flavor, but with another feat as a prereq...2 feats is a steep price for avg maneuverability and bat wings that scream to your enemies "shoot me now! I'm a fiend!".
Shadowdancer isn't unbalancing once he gets there unless you allow him to somehow aquire an army of shadows
I'd be interested to see how he interacts with the first paladin led party he runs into anyway!As was pointed out, the guy's obviously going to lord it over the dwarven fighter....even if they had exactly the same race, class, and feat selection, thanks to very favorable stats.
Sounds like you have things figured out....just fix the few discrepencies, decide whether the disparity in stats is really such a terrible thing in your group, and get on with the adventuring!
Skaros
Olgar Shiverstone said:
Ahem...
Most players with a handle on 3e realize that high stats are more desirable than low stats from a mechanics standpoint. In fact, some ECL +X races have, as their only mechanical difference from ECL 0 races, a net bonus in stats. Which brings me to the tangential question, are high stats worth an ECL modifier?
I seem to remember one poster on the boards (and for some reason I keep thinking its Piratecat, though I'm fuzzy on that one) saying yes to that statement for his higher level campaign. IIRC, he decided to add new PCs to his campaign by asking for a character's stats first (arrived at by whatever means the player felt right), and then assigning a level in relation to the rest of the group based on those stats. Then the rest of the character could be built.
Or, to sum up, what Olgar said...
LuYangShih
First Post
1. Blasphemonkey already stated this character is simply rolling very well on his HP rolls. Hardly shocking, people are sometimes just on a lucky streak.
2. The player does not seem to be deliberately abusing the rules, he simply seems unclear on a few prerequisites for some of his feats.
3. He is so much better than the Dwarven Fighter because he convinced the party to shell out gold to get him better equipment and rolled higher on ability scores. That is so strange, isn't it? Imagine, the party giving in to the smooth talking Rogue instead of helping out the 6 Charisma Dwarf. That would have never happened if they had been roleplaying!
4. The character is hardly a munchkin build. It does not even come close, in fact. He rolled high statistics, well on hitpoints, and convinced the rest of the party to fund the bill for his equipment. Of course he is going to be better. That is just the way the ball rolls.
5. Do not take away his fighter level. Doing so will anger the player. Simply tell him you made a mistake calcuating the ECL and until the rest of the party catches up he will have to wait before he gains more experience. In that case you are not taking anything directly away from him, and he is more likely to accept it.
6. Do not "fix" the Shadowdancer class. It is not broken, and Hide In Plain Sight is a fun ability that is not as overpowered as you seem to think. If he takes a round to hide, he cannot Sneak Attack that round, so it balances itself out. He could do the same thing with Bluff, so I really do not see the problem here.
2. The player does not seem to be deliberately abusing the rules, he simply seems unclear on a few prerequisites for some of his feats.
3. He is so much better than the Dwarven Fighter because he convinced the party to shell out gold to get him better equipment and rolled higher on ability scores. That is so strange, isn't it? Imagine, the party giving in to the smooth talking Rogue instead of helping out the 6 Charisma Dwarf. That would have never happened if they had been roleplaying!
4. The character is hardly a munchkin build. It does not even come close, in fact. He rolled high statistics, well on hitpoints, and convinced the rest of the party to fund the bill for his equipment. Of course he is going to be better. That is just the way the ball rolls.
5. Do not take away his fighter level. Doing so will anger the player. Simply tell him you made a mistake calcuating the ECL and until the rest of the party catches up he will have to wait before he gains more experience. In that case you are not taking anything directly away from him, and he is more likely to accept it.
6. Do not "fix" the Shadowdancer class. It is not broken, and Hide In Plain Sight is a fun ability that is not as overpowered as you seem to think. If he takes a round to hide, he cannot Sneak Attack that round, so it balances itself out. He could do the same thing with Bluff, so I really do not see the problem here.
Squire James
Explorer
Suggested alterations to character:
The character has 1 too many levels. This can be fixed by letting the player decide which level to give up, or by simply raising the XP needed for the next level to its proper value (ie: everyone else levels up for the 2nd time at his next level-up).
Fix the feats. Figure out the virtual feats and write them down. Figure out the number of fighter (2 if he kept 2 fighter levels) and general feats (3 if he gets to keep all 6 character levels). To try to follow his list as much as possible, his feat choices should be something like, assuming no level reductions: (fighter) Weapon Finesse, Dodge, (general) Fiendish Bloodline, Outsider Wings, Mobility. He'll prefer Mobility to Spring Attack anyway! He may be eligible for Fly-by Attack at level 9, but by then it's no big deal.
As for future Shadowdancer levels, it is not unreasonable at all to rule that Shadowdancer shadows are unusual in 2 ways: they are loyal to the Shadowdancer, and they don't spawn more shadows. And as others have noted, the "Hide in Plain Sight" ability always has some sort of environmental limitation that are easy for DM's to forget. In the Shadowdancer's case, it must be an area with shadows. The terrain of best advantage for the tiefling is obviously indoor/underground with high ceilings, but not all adventuring happens in such settings! For instance, there are no shadows in the air outside, even at night. Finally, don't confuse shadows with darkness... you can't HAVE shadows without a light source!
The character has 1 too many levels. This can be fixed by letting the player decide which level to give up, or by simply raising the XP needed for the next level to its proper value (ie: everyone else levels up for the 2nd time at his next level-up).
Fix the feats. Figure out the virtual feats and write them down. Figure out the number of fighter (2 if he kept 2 fighter levels) and general feats (3 if he gets to keep all 6 character levels). To try to follow his list as much as possible, his feat choices should be something like, assuming no level reductions: (fighter) Weapon Finesse, Dodge, (general) Fiendish Bloodline, Outsider Wings, Mobility. He'll prefer Mobility to Spring Attack anyway! He may be eligible for Fly-by Attack at level 9, but by then it's no big deal.
As for future Shadowdancer levels, it is not unreasonable at all to rule that Shadowdancer shadows are unusual in 2 ways: they are loyal to the Shadowdancer, and they don't spawn more shadows. And as others have noted, the "Hide in Plain Sight" ability always has some sort of environmental limitation that are easy for DM's to forget. In the Shadowdancer's case, it must be an area with shadows. The terrain of best advantage for the tiefling is obviously indoor/underground with high ceilings, but not all adventuring happens in such settings! For instance, there are no shadows in the air outside, even at night. Finally, don't confuse shadows with darkness... you can't HAVE shadows without a light source!
Re: D'oh!
Consider making his wings non-functional (perhaps justifying it in-game with a serious wound to them) until he's able to legitimately purchase the feat - which should be his next level from the sound of things.
And if I were you, I'd watch this player like a hawk for now on. Either he's a cheater, or his grasp of the rules is very, very poor (and conveniently always in his favor).
Why is a 6th level melee fighter still wearing scale mail?? That's first level equipment. The dwarf's 1st priority should be getting himself some better armor.Blasphemonkey said:
A) Knock him down to the correct level. B) Make sure he has the proper # feats for his new level (1st level, 3rd level, 1st fighter = 3 total, 1 of which must be a fighter feat). C) Make sure he has the proper prerequisites for *all* of his feats. D) Tell the other players to think twice before handing their money over to the silver-tongued devil-spawn with the bat wings.
Consider making his wings non-functional (perhaps justifying it in-game with a serious wound to them) until he's able to legitimately purchase the feat - which should be his next level from the sound of things.
And if I were you, I'd watch this player like a hawk for now on. Either he's a cheater, or his grasp of the rules is very, very poor (and conveniently always in his favor).
babomb
First Post
Olgar Shiverstone said:
Actually, he rolled two 16s, which is somewhat more inline (or maybe only one, since he could have raised one of them at 4th level). A tiefling gets +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Cha. This, along with a few other benefits, is supposed to put him behind a level. In this case, that rule was overlooked or misunderstood.
Camarath
Pale Master Tarrasque
Character Tiefling lv 3 Rogue/ lv 1 Ranger/ lv 1 Fighter (total character lv 5) ECL +6
Abilities Str 14 (+2) Dex 18 (+4) Con 14 (+2) Int 18 (+4) Wis 14 (+2) Cha 9 (-1)
HD: 3d6 +2d10 +10 (average 32)
BAB +4 ( total attack with Dex +8) Attacks (one weapon) +8 (dual wielding) +6/+6
F (base +7) +9
R (base +3) +7
W (base +1) +3
Skills: 72 Rogue, 8 Ranger, 6 Fighter
Feats: Normal: Dodge (can replace with any feat the character could have taken at lv 1), Fiendish Bloodline (Protection from Good 3/d, Bane 1/d catser lv = character lv)
Bonus: Weapon Finesse (can replace with any feat the other bonus fighter feat the character qualifies for), Track
Virtual: Ambidexterity, Two Weapon Fighting
Class Features: Sneak Attack +2d6, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge(dex to ac), Favored Emeny +1
Racial Features: Outsider (native); Cold, Fire, and Electricity Resistance 5; +2 racial bonus to Bluff and Hide; Darkvision 60ft; Darkness 1/d catser lv = character lv;
Damage: Short Sword 1d6+2 off-hand 1d6+1 (if flanking or opponent denied Dex +2d6)
The character can not take Outside Wings till his base Will save becomes +2. To take the feat at class level 6 the character would need to multiclass into a class with a Good Will save. If he does not the character will need to wait at least till level 9 to take the Outside Wings feat.
I built the character assuming straight rouge progression till 3rd level so the character could take the Fiendish Bloodline feat. Because of the level progression, the max rogue class skill rank is 6. Then the fighter and ranger levels are taken, in any order. The second class has a max skill rank of 7. The third class has a max skill rank of 8.
If I have made any errors (preferably mechanical ones) would you guys please point them out to me.
Edited so the Spelling and Grammar Nazis don't take me away.
Abilities Str 14 (+2) Dex 18 (+4) Con 14 (+2) Int 18 (+4) Wis 14 (+2) Cha 9 (-1)
HD: 3d6 +2d10 +10 (average 32)
BAB +4 ( total attack with Dex +8) Attacks (one weapon) +8 (dual wielding) +6/+6
F (base +7) +9
R (base +3) +7
W (base +1) +3
Skills: 72 Rogue, 8 Ranger, 6 Fighter
Feats: Normal: Dodge (can replace with any feat the character could have taken at lv 1), Fiendish Bloodline (Protection from Good 3/d, Bane 1/d catser lv = character lv)
Bonus: Weapon Finesse (can replace with any feat the other bonus fighter feat the character qualifies for), Track
Virtual: Ambidexterity, Two Weapon Fighting
Class Features: Sneak Attack +2d6, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge(dex to ac), Favored Emeny +1
Racial Features: Outsider (native); Cold, Fire, and Electricity Resistance 5; +2 racial bonus to Bluff and Hide; Darkvision 60ft; Darkness 1/d catser lv = character lv;
Damage: Short Sword 1d6+2 off-hand 1d6+1 (if flanking or opponent denied Dex +2d6)
The character can not take Outside Wings till his base Will save becomes +2. To take the feat at class level 6 the character would need to multiclass into a class with a Good Will save. If he does not the character will need to wait at least till level 9 to take the Outside Wings feat.
I built the character assuming straight rouge progression till 3rd level so the character could take the Fiendish Bloodline feat. Because of the level progression, the max rogue class skill rank is 6. Then the fighter and ranger levels are taken, in any order. The second class has a max skill rank of 7. The third class has a max skill rank of 8.
If I have made any errors (preferably mechanical ones) would you guys please point them out to me.
Edited so the Spelling and Grammar Nazis don't take me away.
Last edited:
Similar Threads
