Help with a bard rogue multiclass needed

[Dale Roberts]

Hi, I'm currently designing up a bard rogue multiclass and need some help with how to configure it.
So far I'm at.
Trying to design a non combat type of character.
Talks and helps a lot
Very very limited offense.
First ability modifier in aiming to take is the feat "menacing"

Race: Changeling (outlander background)

Thinking of taking either
16 levels of bard (college of lore)
4 levels of rogue (mastermind)

Or

17 levels of bard (college of lore)
3 levels of rogue (mastermind)

Could you help me with the pros and cons for each mix I listed above.
Also anything else I might have missed or that could be useful

Thank you and kind regards
Dale

 

[Horwath]

You can also go with scout rogue and lore bard.

3rd level rogue: 4 skills, 2 from scout, 4 expertise
3rd level bard: 1 skill, 3 from lore, 2 expertise,
Background 2 skills

that is 12 skills and 6 expertise by 6th level without race bonuses.

Take 1 level of Lore cleric for 2 more skills and 2 more expertise.

 

[Kobold Stew]

I get that you want Mastermind so you can "help" at range -- that would be lots of fun, I imagine. If you are actually playing it up from level 1, I would suggest not worrying about the precise sequence for now. Start with Rogue and get to 3, and then choose -- do you want a level of Bard, or a Feat? And then keep making that choice level-by-level.

Rogue has great payoffs at levels 4-8 (ASI, Dodge, Expertise, Evasion, ASI) and it's not always clear where the point to pull off should be. Certainly going to 5 for Uncanny Dodge will help with survivability in the long term.

 

[rgoodbb]

Welcome! Have some XP.

Changeling Bard huh. High Charisma/Expertise in Deception. I hope you will be taking the Friends cantrip for behind the lines Disguise Shenanigans.

Anyhow, I don't think you can go wrong with either build as others here have said. If you are starting at 1st, what is the most fun feature to start with in your opinion? That's where I would start. Sometimes our 20 level goals are never achieved because the game fizzles out at 12th or something.

Ps. If you don't want to do damage, have you considered grappling as an extra option? Lore Bards can be surprisingly good at that.

Have fun!

 

[FrogReaver]

Start bard. If you want to help then run up and help. If not then vicious mockery works well enough heroic tier and has a similar effect for what you are looking for. Get to at least level 5, 3rd level spells and short rest recovery bardic inspiration is important.

After you reach level 5 bard then consider rogue but I think you’ll find that there’s no good time to take the 3 levels of rogue. Getting your first lore spell is better at level 6. Getting 4th level spells at level 7. Getting the coveted 20 charisma at level 8 for more bardic inspiration. Getting 5th level spells at level 9. Getting the next lore spell at level 10.

Anyways, I don’t see a useful time to take the rogue levels before way later. Which generally means you shouldn’t worry at all about the multi class combination.

 

[Dale Roberts]

Thanks guys.
Really appreciated.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Start bard. If you want to help then run up and help. If not then vicious mockery works well enough heroic tier and has a similar effect for what you are looking for. Get to at least level 5, 3rd level spells and short rest recovery bardic inspiration is important.

After you reach level 5 bard then consider rogue but I think you’ll find that there’s no good time to take the 3 levels of rogue. Getting your first lore spell is better at level 6. Getting 4th level spells at level 7. Getting the coveted 20 charisma at level 8 for more bardic inspiration. Getting 5th level spells at level 9. Getting the next lore spell at level 10.

Anyways, I don’t see a useful time to take the rogue levels before way later. Which generally means you shouldn’t worry at all about the multi class combination.

I'm gonna say the precise opposite here.

Take your first rogue level early. Possibly first, but you may end up with more skills if you start with Bard and MC rogue.

The concept is a rogue/bard, so don't ditch that just because Bards are a strong single class. Every level in those early levels, of both classes, is going to give you shiney new toys that you're going to love using. You can have 4 Expert skills at level 3, plus jack of all trades, plus theive's tools, plus solid at-will combat potential and spell based big moments. It's a really fun build, though I prefer Swashbuckler of Scout to Mastermind. Still, Mastermind is really fun if you're into the heavy support character thing. It really rounds out the support Bard, too.

You aren't going to miss the level delay with Bard. Seriously. In play, what you get from Rogue will outshine any "oh man I wish I had the next bard thing already".

And I recommend going 4 levels or rogue, because there's no real reason to miss out on a feat just to have one more level of Bard, but there also isn't any hurry to take that final rogue level.

Lastly, don't lock yourself in ahead of time. Plan on what you're planning on, but don't fret if you feel like the character wants to go more rogue than you expected, as you level up. They're both great classes with a lot of thematic overlap, and complimentary mechanics.

 

[AtomicPope]

I suggest you go Bard 17/Rogue 3.

You want the 9th Level spell Foresight. It's just too good to pass up.

 

[Keravath]

If you think the game will go to level 20 then the considerations are different than if it will only go to 10-15.

Level 17 bard is level 9 spells
Level 18 bard is magical secrets where you can grab ANY two level 9 spells you want.

These are both very useful features but they only matter in the end game if you will be playing to level 20 and possibly beyond.

From what you have described as the character concept, you want to excel at skills and rely on spells for damage/control or whatever else needs to be done in combat.

Rogue in this case is for the level 1 skills+expertise and the flavour. Cunning action at level 2 also provides enhanced survivability and additional “rogue” feel. The archetype at level 3 may not add much to the build concept.

If you want to focus on being great at skills then 3 levels of scout rogue and one level of knowledge cleric will give you 6 skills with expertise .. in addition to the 4 you will have from lore bard. In terms of total skills, rogue1 is 4, and 2 for background, 2 if halfelf, add 1 for MC bard, add 2 skills with expertise from scout rogue 3, an additional 2 with expertise from knowledge cleric, 3 more skills from level 3 lore bard.

In the end, you are proficient with 16 skills and have expertise in 10 of them. (There are other builds that can get more skills .. but this is probably one of the more practical/functional ones)