Help with a tank build

[thorimar]

I need a little help with a character build. I had an archer character in my party that had to go away for various reasons. The player is now creating a level 8 melee focused fighter. His only book for race and class choices is PHB. He will not play an elf nor will he go towards a dwarf. No PrC for now, possibly in the future he will go PrC. His two thoughts so far have been Monk 2/Fighter 6 and Brb 1/ Fighter 7. We used a 42 point buy system. I know that is high, but it was the result of good rolling. The numbers as he has worked them so far are (All done with human as race)

Brb 1/fghter 7
STR 14
DEX 17
CON 15
INT 14
WIS 14
CHA 11

adjusted to the following with his 4th & 8th level boosts
STR 14
DEX 18
CON 16
INT 14
WIS 14
CHA 11

His monk numbers are
STR 16
DEX 16
CON 16
INT 14
WIS 14
CHA 8

adjusted to the following at 4th and 8th level
STR 16
DEX 18
CON 16
INT 14
WIS 14
CHA 8

The roll he said he is trying to fill is that of the "tank". Currently the party has a dwarven fighter/cleric filling that role which has worked out okay so far but it is not the best fit. The other two party members are a sorcerer and a rogue/psion. I maintain that Str and Con are the key for a tank while thie player seems to be steering towards Dexterity. He also indicated that he plans on going up the dodge/mobility/SA tree, with combat reflexes, combat expert, and improved trip. His weapon of choice so far is the falchion in 1h/2h with off hand attacks possible unarmed if he goes with the monk.

Am I crazy or is this a really odd build for the tank?? I play the Dwarven cleric in the group but I need a fighter that will complement me. Any help or suggestions you can give will be appreciated. PHB only, core races.

Thorimar

 

[Nightfall]

Don't suppose you could be convinced to use Warmain from AU? Just saying... But realistically straight fighter is better than a multi-class one. Or a straight Barbarian.

 

[Particle_Man]

Tank to me implies heavy armour and lots of hp. That means go fighter all the way or go barbarian all the way. Which depends on the character's taste, but if he likes feat trees, then fighter all the way is the safest best. If he doesn't like the dwarf, and needs that intelligence (so no half-orc, sniff), I recommend human. Then he can get all the feats he needs, and early.

I would "tank" the wisdom and charisma scores back down to 8 (what was he thinking?) and decrease INT by one and use those 10 freed up points to increase strength all the way to 18, if this is a point buy. He still can do the spring attack (and, I assume, whirlwind attack). Now he is just more likely to hit and will do more damage (a la tank). If he is feeling fancy, he can go the spiked chain route, but otherwise greatsword is a fine, servicable weapon. But he wants falchion. Hmmm...ok...well, then he might as well go with improved critical. So at 8th level the human will have 9 feats: dodge, mobility, spring attack, combat expertise, improved trip, and four more (I'd say whirlwind attack, weapon focus, weapon specialization and improved critical). The weapon choice makes this a slightly sub-optimal tank, but maybe there is a good roleplaying reason for it. If he just wants to avoid yet another greatsword (and I understand getting bored with that), I would pimp the spiked chain, as he already wants most of the feats that make it useful, and it only costs one more feat (so he delays his other feats one level).

But if he is the guy that is meant to be sitting there, soaking the damage while the other guys do the fancy magic and psionic stuff, why is he taking the spring attack route anyhow? Maybe he has a different idea of tank than I do.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I'm not sure if he have the right idea of what a 'Tank' should be. The order in which I assign stats for a tank are Con, Str, Wis, Dex, Int, Cha. I think a couple of people will disagree with the position of Wis and Dex, but a tank needs more protection from nasty enchanments than a good Dex that will be restricted by heavy armor. A good tank should have lots of hit points for soaking up damage, and a good strength for giving it back. I think your friend's problems is that he wants something interesting, and a tank looks boring.

Try this build

Str 16 (15 +1 at 8th)
Dex 14
Con 18 (17 +1 at fourth)
Wis 14
Int 14
Cha 11

Fighter 8

Feats: Weapon focus (human), Power attack (1st), and Cleave (bonus)
Then Dodge (bonus 2), Iron Will (3rd), Weapon specialization (bonus 4), Sunder (bonus 6), Greater Cleave (6th), and Improved Critical (bonus 8)

I'd recommend a great sword or great axe for this character, the damage potential with power attack is immense with two handed weapons.

 

[two]

tank is a tank

If you really want a tank on a 42 point build, it's pretty easy.

Con=18 (required) 16 points, is 20 after boosting
Ch=8 (who cares)
Int=13 (prerequisites) 5 points
Str=16 (reasonably strong) 10 points
Wis= 14 (will save) 6 points
Dex = 13 (full plate) 5 points

Wear full plate, use a tower shield, yes a tower shield. Maybe Barb1/Fighter7.

A tanks needs high AC, so use the Tower Shield, take a hit on your "to hit" roll. Deal with it. Tanks prioritize AC over damage dealing. Similarly, perhaps take Expertise for further AC-boosting fun.

Might want to seriously consider a one-handed tripping weapon; the penalties "to hit" for tower shield and expertise are not enough to make you miss a touch attack; and the opposed role does not include these penalties. So you can have your turkey with gravy. Improved Trip, Improved Sunder, that sort of thing. (ditto sunder, it's pretty easy to hit held objects/weapons).

Iron Will should be taken for sure. You are a tank. Defense, man, with a sprinkling of fun offense. Get a cloak of displacement or other fun defensive items and sit and soak it up. Your will save will be instead of rancid, just bad. Grab a cloak of resistance/item of resistance +3 or +4 pronto.

True tanks last; they are the opposite of high-damage dealing barbarians (with low ACs). They can be a lot of fun; think about it. Anytime you are actually alive is way more fun than being dead. Lots of barbarians are dead.

 

[Ovinomancer]

tanks needs high AC, so use the Tower Shield, take a hit on your "to hit" roll. Deal with it. Tanks prioritize AC over damage dealing. Similarly, perhaps take Expertise for further AC-boosting fun.

I don't agree. The purpose of a tank is to soak it up and dish it out. The Hp allow the soaking, but mudding the waters with expertise and the like reduce the dishing. Besides, a smart enemy will realize that he can't hit the high AC guy and will switch to the low AC guys the tank is supposed to be guarding. As a tank, your job is to protect the weaker characters, and the high AC route just leads the baddies in the wrong direction.

Besides, if you take levels in barbarian, expertise is a useless feat. You can't use it while raging. And since you can use it, you can't use whirlwind in a rage.

 

[two]

I don't agree. The purpose of a tank is to soak it up and dish it out. The Hp allow the soaking, but mudding the waters with expertise and the like reduce the dishing. Besides, a smart enemy will realize that he can't hit the high AC guy and will switch to the low AC guys the tank is supposed to be guarding. As a tank, your job is to protect the weaker characters, and the high AC route just leads the baddies in the wrong direction.

Besides, if you take levels in barbarian, expertise is a useless feat. You can't use it while raging. And since you can use it, you can't use whirlwind in a rage.

That's all pretty meta.

There is no real "way" for a orc to tell if he missed because it was a bad round, or because of armor, or expertise, or the tower shield. Anything else is house rule time.

Maybe after a few rounds an experienced warrior would figure out the guy is impossible to hit, but maybe not. It's pretty subtle, and the experienced level8 fighter could tell the GM he's doing defensive stuff "not obviously" or something. That's about as valid, rules-wise, as saying "it's obvious the guy can't be hit."

You know?

The tank fighter will still connect a lot (don't use expertise if you don't really need it), and rage is a kinda last-gasp sort of thing for the xtra HP's.

Anyway, if it takes 2-3 rounds that's enough, the orc is probably dead.

This tank will still deal good damage, just not extreme damage. That's the way it goes sometimes.

 

[Legildur]

Besides, if you take levels in barbarian, expertise is a useless feat. You can't use it while raging. And since you can use it, you can't use whirlwind in a rage.

I thought that the FAQ clarified this to say that you CAN use higher level feats in the trees dependent on Combat Expertise when raging? But yes, you can't use Combat Expertise itself.

 

[The Souljourner]

Barbarians make crappy tanks. They have really really crappy AC which is only worsened by rage. Sure, they dish out damage for the one or two rounds they stay up, but since every single attack is going to hit them, they take a ton of damage too.
At low level, decent AC will stop 90% of monsters from hitting you, whereas they'll hit the barbarian every time, and the extra 2 or 4 hitpoints he has won't mean a thing after the first hit that would have missed the AC tank.

And it just gets worse as you go up. Barbarians aren't tanks, they are melee monsters that eat up all the cleric's healing spells.

Be kind to your cleric, bring someone with fullplate and a shield.

For 8th level, nothing beats a dwarven fighter 4/paladin 3/dwarven defender 1 as a tank. Immune to fear and disease. Gets to add his charisma bonus to saves (yes the one below has only 14 charisma... think about a cloak of charisma! It's a free +3 to all your saves that no one else will want). Gets 42+7d10+1d12 hitpoints, plus has 21 AC before magic items. Compare that to the raging barbarian who has 16AC while raging if he's lucky.

Let's see.. 42 points

Str 16 - 10 - becomes 18 with two stat raises
Con 16 - 10 - becomes 18
Dex 13 - 5
Int 10 - 2
Wis 13 - 5
Cha 16 - 10 - becomes 14

I have pretty much this exact character right now. He totally rocks. Craploads of hitpoints, massive AC.. and you can't just ignore him, because of attacks of opportunity and the like. Sure, if you're flying around in the open, he's at a disadvantage, but if you're ever in a dungeon, there's no one else you want on the front line.

And the great thing is, he doesn't require constant healing, so the cleric can concentrate on fighting instead of healing that dumb@$$ barbarian who just took 90 damage again.

-The Souljourner

P.S. Legildur is right... you haven't lost access to the feat, you just can't use it right now. There's a big difference. He still *has* expertise, he just can't use it.

 

[Darklone]

What about a monk4/Ftr4? Thousands of feats? Pick a polearm. Get Enlarge Person from somewhere and use Ovinomancers build up there. You'll have whirlwind attack and can mass trip everyone in range.

Does Jotunbrud from Races of Faerun give a bonus to trips as well or only to oppose trips?