Help with a tank build

[Dr_Rictus]

On the offense/defense thing, I'd disagree that the point of the "tank" is to do damage, at least the way I'm used to that term being used. But maybe there's some confusion there. The only usage I've seen to distinguish between "fighter" generically and "tank" specifically is that the tank has a defensive role. So I'm going to assume that's what we're talking about.

However, in order to be able to present a useful defense to the rest of the party, your tank has to be able to control the area around himself. Otherwise, opponents will just get frustrated with his AC and go attack someone else.

One way to do that is to present a sufficiently credible offensive threat that nobody wants to provoke an AoO by going around you. If you can't do that, you need to optimize for tactics like tripping, grappling, disarming, or sundering if you're going to defend anyone other than yourself. Tripping and grappling are your best bets since as touch attacks you can still often get them off with your AoO, even if your attack bonus has been depleted by Combat Expertise. Proficiency with Spiked Chain is especially nice here, since it can be used for tripping and has a 5- to 10- foot reach. Throw Combat Reflexes into there, and you'll be able to at least attempt to down enemies moving through quite a large zone of control.

 

[Korak]

That's all pretty meta.

There is no real "way" for a orc to tell if he missed because it was a bad round, or because of armor, or expertise, or the tower shield. Anything else is house rule time.

Maybe after a few rounds an experienced warrior would figure out the guy is impossible to hit, but maybe not. It's pretty subtle, and the experienced level8 fighter could tell the GM he's doing defensive stuff "not obviously" or something. That's about as valid, rules-wise, as saying "it's obvious the guy can't be hit."

You know?

The tank fighter will still connect a lot (don't use expertise if you don't really need it), and rage is a kinda last-gasp sort of thing for the xtra HP's.

Anyway, if it takes 2-3 rounds that's enough, the orc is probably dead.

This tank will still deal good damage, just not extreme damage. That's the way it goes sometimes.

Yes, but what is not "meta" is the enemies seeing the extremely well armored "tank" who isn't doing much damage and isn't mobile enough to really hinder them while they snack the soft underbelly of the party. Or, for the less intelligent enemies, how bout the good ole decision rule of "I bash whatever is doing me the most harm." Some DMs just beat on the tank because he is there. To borrow a term from online gaming, there is no "aggro management." When your DM plays the encounters more to the hilt, the tank needs to be more like the real world tank (high offense and high defense).

Believe me, I know the value of high AC, there is a 50+ AC monk in both of the high level games I play in. However, that AC is much less useful if the person with it isn't the person taking the hits. Also, in a game with 42 point buy, there is no reason whatsoever to wear fullplate armor, none. Mithril Chain Shirt, decent dex, later bumped to 20 or 22 with stat items. Dex has too many benefits to not buy it up, not to mention the great advantage of speed. How much better is spring attack when you move 40' (Bbn1Ftr7 in MCS) instead of 20' (Bbn1Ftr7 in fullplate).

I don't have time to post a full build atm, but I'll get back to this thread.

 

[Storminator]

The great advantage of the high AC tank is for the rogue. Instead of having the fragile rogue tumble into the center of everything and sneak attacking, have the tank just walk in there, sucking up the AoO. Then he stands in the center of the melee while the rogue prowls the outside, flanking and slaying.

As long as the foes ignore the tank, he's providing flanking. And the rogue is not going to get ganged up on.

Very, very effective.

PS

 

[Darklone]

The great advantage of the high AC tank is for the rogue. Instead of having the fragile rogue tumble into the center of everything and sneak attacking, have the tank just walk in there, sucking up the AoO. Then he stands in the center of the melee while the rogue prowls the outside, flanking and slaying.

As long as the foes ignore the tank, he's providing flanking. And the rogue is not going to get ganged up on.

Very, very effective.

PS

Did you ever have dwarven Ftr/Rog dudes with doubleweapons, heavy armour and TWF/THF combat style depending which one was better? Who needs a low hitpoint rogue

 

[Korak]

I don't have time to post a full build atm, but I'll get back to this thread.

Here we go.

Half-Orc Bbn2/Ftr6
Stats:
Str: 20 (16 Base + 2 Racial + 2 GoOP+2)
Dex: 16 (16 Base)
Con: 20 (16 Base + 2 AoH+2 + 2 Level 4/8 stat up)
Int: 13 (15 Base -2 Racial)
Wis: 12 (12 Base)
Cha: 6 (8 Base -2 Racial)

Feats:
Bbn1: (L1)Power Attack
Bbn1/Ftr1: (Ftr1)Cleave
Bbn2/Ftr1: (L3)Combat Expertise
Bbn2/Ftr2: (Ftr2)Improved Trip
Bbn2/Ftr3:
Bbn2/Ftr4: (L6)Improved Buckler Defense, (Ftr4) Weapon Focus (Heavy Flail)
Bbn2/Ftr5:
Bbn2/Ftr6: (Ftr6) Power Critical (Heavy Flail)

Other Class Abilities:
Fast Movement (10')
Rage (1/day)
Uncanny Dodge

Future feat options: Three Mountains, Improved Critical, Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack, Improved Disarm, Improved Sunder (don't forget to get an adamantite heavy flail for this), Extra Rage (with or without more barbarian levels)

The heavy flail is an often overlooked weapon. It provides solid damage (d10 --> 2d8 enlarged), with a good crit range, it's a tripping weapon, and it gives +2 to disarm attempts.

This guy can wear a breastplate or regular chain shirt until you can afford a mithril chain shirt. You'll have the option of one really high offense fight during the day to complement your defensive option (combat expertise). If you want to accelerate your feat selection at the cost of a bit of AC, you can give up Improved Buckler Defense and just hold out for an animated shield. As character wealth rises, you'll move to belt of giant strength and be able to get a dex item.

As for items:
Gauntlets of Ogre Power +2
Amulet of Health +2
Cloak of Resistance +1
Ring of Protection +1
Ghost Touch Heavy Flail +1
Buckler +1
Heward's Handy Haversack
Mighty(+5) Composite Longbow
Mithril Chain Shirt +1

 

[DarkMaster]

That's all pretty meta.

Maybe after a few rounds an experienced warrior would figure out the guy is impossible to hit, but maybe not. It's pretty subtle, and the experienced level8 fighter could tell the GM he's doing defensive stuff "not obviously" or something. That's about as valid, rules-wise, as saying "it's obvious the guy can't be hit."

Pretty easy to figure out. To me a 2nd fighter is already an experienced warrior. Any combatant will be able to assess how hard it is to hit the guy when they roll 16-19 roll, if they fail the player will see that there is something wrong, the PC will do the same assesment, (Gee that move usually go through a full plate like butter why is it not working on this guy?).

 

[Endur]

The only thing that beats a dwarven ftr 4/pal 3/dd 1 is a ftr 1/pal 6/dd 1.

Two smite evils a day, a Dire Wolf Special Mount, Bless Weapon, Divine Favor, extra lay on hands, and turn undead. Lots of nifty abilities and all you lose is two feats.

But, in general, I agree that DD's are awesome. Its not just reduced healing from the cleric. I played many adventures where my DD never needed any healing.

For 8th level, nothing beats a dwarven fighter 4/paladin 3/dwarven defender 1 as a tank.

 

[Impeesa]

If you're willing to plan a few levels into the future, nothing says "tank!" like the Frenzied Berserker's deathless frenzy.

--Impeesa--

 

[jarlaxlecq]

My 2 cents on this is that a tank a low levels needs to have lots of hit points to sock up damage AS WELL as dish it out as other members of the group can't carry their weight yet. As they rise in level. The Tanks job is to protect the casters and keep the enemies attention on him as the rest of the group decimates the opposition

 

[the_mighty_agrippa]

Why does this guy need to be a tank? Is it to maximize damage? Is it to protect the other characters? That choice greatly determines the future of the character, especially if you look at Devoted Defender or Dwarven Defender down the line.