...Are you trying to bait Dandu?
I don't know. Who is this Dandu guy?
I haven't been ion these forums for long, so please help me learn.
Help with casting spells
- Thread starter bml5099
- Start date
I don't know. Who is this Dandu guy?
I haven't been ion these forums for long, so please help me learn.
Dandu
First Post
You do realize that "Scorching Burst" is a 4e wizard power, right?
Let's see... and you don't think there are any broken spells in 3e except for one that doesn't exist in 3e.
I'm going to list some spells and their uses. Tell me what you think.
Wings of Flurry (Sorcerer only, level 4, Races of the Dragon) - 1d6/level uncapped force damage. Reflex save for half. Failure means that you are dazed.
Wings of Cover (Sorcerer only, level 2, Races of the Dragon) - Immediate action spell that grants total cover against one attack, spell, or etc.
Celerity (level 4, PHB2) - You will pretty much always go first with this spell.
Contingency (level 6, PHB) - Speaking is a free action. Shout "Bugger my aunt" (or do it in Sign Language if speaking is an issue) in the event you're attacked and unprepared, and you have effectively a get out of jail free card since you trigger your Resilient Sphere/Dimension Door/Celerity/whatever.
Time Stop (level 9, PHB) - You get to take multiple actions while everyone else has to be restricted by the normal flow of time.
The Planar Binding series (levels 5, 6, and 8, PHB) - You can use Lesser Planar Binding at level 9 for a wizard and level 10 for a sorcerer to get a Nightmare. Proceed to enjoy the benefit of a mount which can cast Astral Projection and Etheralness at will at a CL of 20. It gets worse when you can Planar Bind Solars, Pit Fiends, and Balors in order to make use of the Holy Word and Blashphemy.
The Polymorph series (levels 2, 4, 8, and 9, PHB) - Especially Polymorph Any Object and Shapechange. Just as an example, you can Shapechange into a Choker for an extra Standard or Move action every turn. This means you get to cast an extra spell every turn in addition to quickened spells. You can also Shapechange into a Zodar, which gets Wish as a (Su) ability 1/year, which means you don't have to pay XP costs for it. It also means that you can change form, each round, into a different Zodar while Shapechange is active and you get another free use of Wish. There are much more abusive things you can do with Shapechange.
Maw of Chaos (level 9 SpC) - uncapped 1d6/level force damage in a small area. This spell has a duration, which means you can drop it on people in a time stop.
Holy Word and similar spells (level 7 PHB) - It's easy to get +6 CL as a Cleric if you're going to use this spell (and more if you try), which means that you can basically stunlock anyone a level above you and lower. This is pretty bad.
Let's see... and you don't think there are any broken spells in 3e except for one that doesn't exist in 3e.
I'm going to list some spells and their uses. Tell me what you think.
Wings of Flurry (Sorcerer only, level 4, Races of the Dragon) - 1d6/level uncapped force damage. Reflex save for half. Failure means that you are dazed.
Wings of Cover (Sorcerer only, level 2, Races of the Dragon) - Immediate action spell that grants total cover against one attack, spell, or etc.
Celerity (level 4, PHB2) - You will pretty much always go first with this spell.
Contingency (level 6, PHB) - Speaking is a free action. Shout "Bugger my aunt" (or do it in Sign Language if speaking is an issue) in the event you're attacked and unprepared, and you have effectively a get out of jail free card since you trigger your Resilient Sphere/Dimension Door/Celerity/whatever.
Time Stop (level 9, PHB) - You get to take multiple actions while everyone else has to be restricted by the normal flow of time.
The Planar Binding series (levels 5, 6, and 8, PHB) - You can use Lesser Planar Binding at level 9 for a wizard and level 10 for a sorcerer to get a Nightmare. Proceed to enjoy the benefit of a mount which can cast Astral Projection and Etheralness at will at a CL of 20. It gets worse when you can Planar Bind Solars, Pit Fiends, and Balors in order to make use of the Holy Word and Blashphemy.
The Polymorph series (levels 2, 4, 8, and 9, PHB) - Especially Polymorph Any Object and Shapechange. Just as an example, you can Shapechange into a Choker for an extra Standard or Move action every turn. This means you get to cast an extra spell every turn in addition to quickened spells. You can also Shapechange into a Zodar, which gets Wish as a (Su) ability 1/year, which means you don't have to pay XP costs for it. It also means that you can change form, each round, into a different Zodar while Shapechange is active and you get another free use of Wish. There are much more abusive things you can do with Shapechange.
Maw of Chaos (level 9 SpC) - uncapped 1d6/level force damage in a small area. This spell has a duration, which means you can drop it on people in a time stop.
Holy Word and similar spells (level 7 PHB) - It's easy to get +6 CL as a Cleric if you're going to use this spell (and more if you try), which means that you can basically stunlock anyone a level above you and lower. This is pretty bad.
Last edited:
Was that me or you, StreamOfTheSky? But now I know what you meant. If it was me: Sorry. I'll never do that again.
Dandu: Not objective, because only very selected information is provided and no complete picture (and I will not look up every spell and no, I don't know every whatsoever supplement). And I don't want to start a discussion that is likely to evolve into a flame war. Sorry.
Dandu: Not objective, because only very selected information is provided and no complete picture (and I will not look up every spell and no, I don't know every whatsoever supplement). And I don't want to start a discussion that is likely to evolve into a flame war. Sorry.
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
*sigh*
Agreed on these, very powerful/broken. You forgot to mention that Wings of Flurry is also an area spell that lets you choose between allies and enemies. And I don't see why the default assumption is that it's uncapped. The DMG has a table for appropriate damage dice caps for spells of a certain type (arcane and area, in this case) based on spell level. As a level 4 spell, this should cap at 10d6. If the spell doesn't explicitly list a damage cap, wouldn't you fall back on the table first? Instead of just using the "it doesn't say we can't do it" excuse?
You get one get out of jail free card. And then have to recast it, probably the next day if you're a wizard (if a sorc, learning it is punishment enough; most sorcs just get it from scrolls IME). It's not that big of a deal. The Craft Contingent Spell or whatever it's called metamagic feat I have serious problems with, though.
Time Stop (level 9, PHB) - You get to take multiple actions while everyone else has to be restricted by the normal flow of time.[/QUOTE]
You can't hurt enemies during that time, so it's mostly for buffing or summoning. Possibly laying down battlefield control spells, but by level 17-18, teleportation magic to escape an area laden with control spells is trivial. You could burn a level 8 on Dimensional Lock as well, I suppose, but that's an awful lot of high level spell resources flying around now. (I have never been in a group where the DM let the players end the day early, and most people I play with wouldn't want to do that anyway, maybe it colors my perception on this).
Planar Binding as written often involves bribes, making it costly. And it's dangerous, every time you fail to strike a bargain you have to wait another day and give the captive another chance to break out. Even if it all works out, the spell explicitly mentions the being possibly seeking revenge later on. Even a good outsider being bound by a good party to do good deeds might not appreciate being forced to do something against its will. Or perhaps you pulled it away from something far more important. Any evil outsider is likely to be very pissed at you. This isn't a regular use spell IME, I don't see it breaking anything in the long term.
I disagree that the level 4 Polymorph is broken, Alter Self is, Poly Any Object probably is, Shapechange definitely is.
I have never seen any DM or any group, that would interpret Shapechange that way. You'd get one wish per year, no matter how different the appearance of your "next" Zodar form may be, you're still "Mage the Zodar," the same Zodar. I'd dare say a group that allows something as stupidly abusive as that interpretation will have MANY other balance problems with their game.
Definitely.
They don't take damage from it until the Time Stop wears off, just pointing that out. And really...uncapped damage dice on a 9th level spell? What games really reach high enough for that to even matter? And by the time they do, you're into epic levels and have better things to cast anyway.
Divine Spell Power and what...? I didn't know it was "easy" to hit +6 CL.
Agreed on these, very powerful/broken. You forgot to mention that Wings of Flurry is also an area spell that lets you choose between allies and enemies. And I don't see why the default assumption is that it's uncapped. The DMG has a table for appropriate damage dice caps for spells of a certain type (arcane and area, in this case) based on spell level. As a level 4 spell, this should cap at 10d6. If the spell doesn't explicitly list a damage cap, wouldn't you fall back on the table first? Instead of just using the "it doesn't say we can't do it" excuse?
You get one get out of jail free card. And then have to recast it, probably the next day if you're a wizard (if a sorc, learning it is punishment enough; most sorcs just get it from scrolls IME). It's not that big of a deal. The Craft Contingent Spell or whatever it's called metamagic feat I have serious problems with, though.
Time Stop (level 9, PHB) - You get to take multiple actions while everyone else has to be restricted by the normal flow of time.[/QUOTE]
You can't hurt enemies during that time, so it's mostly for buffing or summoning. Possibly laying down battlefield control spells, but by level 17-18, teleportation magic to escape an area laden with control spells is trivial. You could burn a level 8 on Dimensional Lock as well, I suppose, but that's an awful lot of high level spell resources flying around now. (I have never been in a group where the DM let the players end the day early, and most people I play with wouldn't want to do that anyway, maybe it colors my perception on this).
Planar Binding as written often involves bribes, making it costly. And it's dangerous, every time you fail to strike a bargain you have to wait another day and give the captive another chance to break out. Even if it all works out, the spell explicitly mentions the being possibly seeking revenge later on. Even a good outsider being bound by a good party to do good deeds might not appreciate being forced to do something against its will. Or perhaps you pulled it away from something far more important. Any evil outsider is likely to be very pissed at you. This isn't a regular use spell IME, I don't see it breaking anything in the long term.
I disagree that the level 4 Polymorph is broken, Alter Self is, Poly Any Object probably is, Shapechange definitely is.
I have never seen any DM or any group, that would interpret Shapechange that way. You'd get one wish per year, no matter how different the appearance of your "next" Zodar form may be, you're still "Mage the Zodar," the same Zodar. I'd dare say a group that allows something as stupidly abusive as that interpretation will have MANY other balance problems with their game.
Definitely.
They don't take damage from it until the Time Stop wears off, just pointing that out. And really...uncapped damage dice on a 9th level spell? What games really reach high enough for that to even matter? And by the time they do, you're into epic levels and have better things to cast anyway.
Divine Spell Power and what...? I didn't know it was "easy" to hit +6 CL.
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
I'm culpable, too. Baiting Dandu to go into an analysis of broken spells in turn baits me to reply and further derail the topic.
Dandu
First Post
I do not wish to incure the wrath of the powers that be by revealing copyrighted information, ie, anything not on the SRD.
Do you at least have the Player's Handbook or access to the internet so you can find spells via the SRD, which contains core rules, spells, and etc? A good portion of the abuse I listed can be done with only core spells.
Last edited:
Dandu
First Post
"You evoke flickering dragon’s wings that strike at every target in range, dealing 1d6 points of damage per caster level to all designated targets within 30 feet that fail a Reflex saving throw and half that damage to creatures that succeed on the save. "
Compare with Fireball: "A fireball spell is an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature within the area."
In every case of a capped spell, the text says so. In every case for an uncapped spell (other examples: Maw of Chaos, Venomfire) the capping text is left out.
That table is a guideline. Specific trumps general, so I feel confident in my intepretation that there is no cap.
If you're going to treat the tables as rules, you open up a whole new can of worms concerning custom items...
And some 4th level spells do not obey the table anyways, such as the Orb spells.
Summoning allies and buffing are the major aspects, yes.
The bribes make it easier. If you have enough raw charisma (and it's possible if you're a sorcerer) or the Moment of Prescience spell, you don't need to bribe anyone.
The nightmare alone is problematic. It can't really do much to seek revenge on you since it can't really plane shift back to you after you finish with it. Now, you could argue that it finds contacts and etc, but the creature itself is weak, and you'll be pissing off far more powerful enemies on a regular basis, so it doesn't really add to the danger you're facing.
In general, assuming your victims are hostile.. given the way Diplomacy works as written, and the fact that you're a Sorcerer with huge charisma... and will have access to Moment of Prescience when you do planar bind Balors... let's say there's a way to make sure your new best buddy doesn't come back to seek revenge.
Alter Self and Polymorph can be argued as being too strong for their level. Agreed on the last two.
I'm pretty sure you're a different Zodar, but I don't feel a need to argue this point given the other broken things you can do with Shapechange.
It's not so much about what is allowed as what the spell says can be done; nothing is broken if we go by what will be allowed because nothing broken will be allowed in a real game.
Hopefully, anyways.
Red Wizards can get CL 40 easily from Circle Magic. pre epic. Throw on a Ring of Arcane Might, Magical Tattoo (+1 CL from a 2nd level spell), Orange Ioun Stone, Bead of Karma (activated via UMD), possibly +1 from Archmage's Spell Power.... CL 49 so far.They don't take damage from it until the Time Stop wears off, just pointing that out. And really...uncapped damage dice on a 9th level spell? What games really reach high enough for that to even matter? And by the time they do, you're into epic levels and have better things to cast anyway.
Good Domain. Orange Ioun Stone. Bead of Karma. Seriously, this is +6 to your CL for that spell from core alone. Divine Spell Power just makes it worse/better depending on your definition.
This is before the bag of rats + Greater Consumptive Field trick.
Last edited:
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
I don't mind a 9th level spell being uncapped nearly as much as I do a 4th level spell. Not familiar with Venomfire, what book is that in?
The table is still the rules, it's not in a variant section pocket or anything. And no, the orb spells do obey the table. For 4th level arcane spells, it says the cap should be 15 dice for a single target and 10 dice for multiple targets. The only orb spell that doesn't follow that guideline is orb of force, which undershootsthe max and caps at 10d6, because it's just plainly better than the others, being force damage. Even viewed as a guideline...it is still a guideline then. The text says, "Use the tables below (one for arcane spells, one for divine spells) to determine approximately how much damage a spell should deal." If you wanted to argue for 15 dice or something, at least that'd still be in the ballpark. Unlimited? No way.
DMG p. 36 for the table if you want to check.
The broken part of this seems to be the Red Wizard Circle Magic, to me.
DMs allow bag of rat tricks in real games?
Dandu
First Post
The the DMG recommends that a 9th level spell be capped at 25d6 dice.
I seem to remember it as being from Savage Species, since it is filed under my list of grievances against that book.
It's a guideline under the section for creating new spells. Spells do not have to follow it rigidly.
They didn't even stick with it through all of core; Scorching Ray should be capped at 10 dice but it can deal 12d6 fire damage.
It says "approximately" which means it's not a hard and fast rule. Also, it mentions that one should compare the range of a custom spell to that of existing spells when determining effects. Since Wings of Flurry has an extremely short range compared to, say, Fireball... can you tell where I'm going with this?
Now, I have something you might want to check: page 119 of Races of the Dragon, where Wings of Flurry is listed as not having a cap on damage. Also, the errata and 3.5 FAQ, neither of which mention Wings of Flurry as needing a cap.
Cast Greater Consumptive Field. Everything with less than 10 (or was it 9?) hit points dies and boosts your CL up to 1/2. Rats have less than that number of HP.
Last edited:
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
Yeah. And given the levels most games stop at, uncapped is a much smaller leap from 25 dice than from 10. If I were running a game that went to very high levels and the caster was pulling off a CL of 35 or whatever, I'd probably enforce the table on Maw of Chaos, too. Unless I was stupid enough to allow Epic Spellcasting as written / at all, of course. Then Maw of Chaos doing uncapped damage would be pretty small potatoes at that point...
Savage Species, Rules Compendium, and C.Psionic have the special distinction of being the only WotC 3E books I actively try to ignore the existence of. At least with SS, I can say it's 3.0 and not allow it on that reason alone. Awful book, though.
12 dice is still close to 10, it's "approximate." And scorching ray potentially faces resistances up to 3 times on one casting, instead of a single burst of damage, possibly the reason for giving it a little boost.
WoF has a wider area of effect than fireball, a significantly better type of damage, includes the ability to not risk friendly fire, and has a daze effect attached. Can you tell where I'm going with this?
I'm sure it works mathematically. That wasn't what I was disputing. Have you had many DMs that would let you use a figurative or literal bag of rats for this, or Great Cleave, or any of the other "bag of rats tricks"?
Last edited:
Similar Threads
