Help with CR of BBEG

[scipio]

Hello all. Long-time lurker, first time poster.

The set-up is 6 11th level characters, and they will be facing down an Old Red Dragon (though they don't know that). Now I realize this is listed as CR20 in the Manual (ie TPK), but the Dragon will be somewhat limited. The setting is a great hall, where the dragon will only be able to use 2 claws, a wing, a bite, and magic. The tail sweep will initially be limited by a pillar, the dragon will not be able to take flight, and will be reluctant to use its breath weapon, at least in the early going. Further, the party will get a chance to hack at its humanoid alternate form for a bit to deplete a few HP before the final battle. Finally, the group has advance knowledge that fire is likely to be a threat, but they'll have to fight their way through middling threats to get to the BBEG.

While the group will not necessarily win, I want them to have a chance with smart play. Is this over-the-top? I arrived at the Dragon's age category from a role-playing standpoint, and have already tweaked the age ranges to keep it as low as it is. Still, I can't imagine that this dragon's CR is equal to a tarrasque, or pit fiend, as the manual would have you believe. Thanks in advance.

-Scipio

 

[shilsen]

They're dead.

Seriously. Unless you go out of your way to play the dragon as a complete idiot, its going to be a TPK. Actually, considering its stats and automatic abilities (frightful presence DC 29, SR 24, AC 33, +36 attack bonus, +23/16/21 saves, etc.), even if you play it as a complete idiot you could pull off a TPK.

 

[AuraSeer]

TPK, easily. Even if the PCs showed up with full hit points, with no spells expended, they could not realistically expect to win.

The limitations you describe cut the dragon's CR by at most 1 or 2 levels. It is still extremely hard for them to hurt (high AC, SR, and saves), and has LOTS of hit points, so there's no way the battle will be over quickly.

Against 11th level characters, the dragon will practically never miss its attacks; a bite/claw/claw/wing routine will be at +40/+35/+35/+35. Total damage if everything hits is 5d6+4d8+30, or an average of 66. A mage will probably go down in a single round, fighters in two or three at the most. Also, since it casts as a Sor11, it has access to spells like dominate person and baleful polymorph.

Unless you intentionally play like an idiot, there's no reason for the dragon to lose.

The right thing to do is reduce its age category, to adult at the oldest, and then generate an RP reason for that to make sense. If you absolutely refuse to do that, figure out some reason for it to teleport away while one of the PCs is still alive.

 

[Nail]

This is likely to sound like a broken record, but:

The PCs are meat. Dead. Toasted. TPK, easily.

Besides: Why, by all that's holy, do you want to limit the dragon? He's a fire breathing dragon, and yet won't breathe fire? His lair is (presumably) his own, and yet he can't/won't fly? His natural attacks and AC will wipe the floor with even the best 9th level warrior, and yet he stays in his weaker polymorphed form?

Wha? ......

 

[Shadeus]

Yeah, death and mayhem await your group. How do you feel about CR 13-14 half-dragons?

 

[Nail]

Now that's a good idea....especially as you've hinted that the players have already met his "human" form.

 

[scipio]

This is likely to sound like a broken record, but:

The PCs are meat. Dead. Toasted. TPK, easily.

Besides: Why, by all that's holy, do you want to limit the dragon? He's a fire breathing dragon, and yet won't breathe fire? His lair is (presumably) his own, and yet he can't/won't fly? His natural attacks and AC will wipe the floor with even the best 9th level warrior, and yet he stays in his weaker polymorphed form?

Wha? ......

Thanks to everyone for your replies. At least there's an overwhelming consensus - TPK. The reasons for the limitations are due to plot points. This particular dragon has hidden its form for hundreds of years (in fact, one of the ways I've scaled down its age is by not counting these "mortal" years), living amongst the populace. Indeed, the players know this man quite well. At this time, it's particularly reluctant to reveal its true form. Second, the setting is not the dragon's lair - it's the king's palace, since the dragon is in the midst of avenging a 1000 year old dispute - and there are hostages and important items that would be placed at risk by the flame. There's no room to take flight, and little room for such a large creature to turn around.

My thinking was that fighters at this level will have an 18-20 attack bonus on their first attack (str +4-+6, BAB +11, Greater weapon focus +2, +2 or 3 magic weapon), wizards with spell penetration will have around 40% chance of successful casting, and buffed priests will have similar odds. Sure, my players may have to expend every item in their possession, but they won't have to kill the dragon, just do enough damage to make it flee. At any rate, I may just stat it out like an adult dragon, or reduce its size by 1.

 

[AuraSeer]

TThis particular dragon has hidden its form for hundreds of years (in fact, one of the ways I've scaled down its age is by not counting these "mortal" years), living amongst the populace. Indeed, the players know this man quite well. At this time, it's particularly reluctant to reveal its true form.

Well, there's your answer. Have the dragon simply refuse to reveal his true form at this time.

Confronted by the PCs he remains in his polymorphed shape, and defends himself only with minions and his sorcerer spells. By the time he's taken maybe 200 points of damage-- obviously more than a human should survive, but not yet enough to threaten his life-- he should realize he can't defeat the PCs without reverting to his dragon shape. At that point he decides to teleport away rather than give up his disguise. (For extra points in Evil Style, he can sneer at their puny abilities, and inform them just how lucky they are that he doesn't feel lke killing them today.)

A Sor11 with the dragon's stats (Charisma, hit points, saves and SR) is a very credible BBEG for your party; if you want a very difficult fight, you could even give him one or two class levels in sorcerer. The players will realize something's up when he soaks up all that damage without dying, and will be really frustrated when he gets away.

The real benefit of a setup like this is that you have an awesome recurring villain. Have the party fight him once or twice more over the next few levels, again in public places where he must still pretend to be human. Then at the very climax of the campaign, when the party has reached 17th-20th level, they track him down a third time-- in a desolate locale with no witnesses. (The rim of an erupting volcano would be fun.) They beat on the "evil sorcerer" again for one round, then he gets sick of losing, and returns to dragon form to lay down the smack.

 

[shilsen]

A Sor11 with the dragon's stats (Charisma, hit points, saves and SR) is a very credible BBEG for your party; if you want a very difficult fight, you could even give him one or two class levels in sorcerer.

I'd say even that's not necessary. A polymorphed old red dragon is essentially an 11th lvl sorcerer with a +28 BAB and the abilities you mentioned. Should confuse the PCs thoroughly if he picks up a stick and starts whaling on the platemail-clad fighter, attacking four times a round, hitting with almost every time, but doing negligible damage due to his low Str

 

[RangerWickett]

And we fought him tonight. And he (actually a she) would've wiped the floor with us if one of the PCs hadn't grabbed her precious artifact and plane shifted away. We tried breaking the pillars holding up the temple to drop the building on her, but then she just seemed to think that was a good idea, because she started doing it too, figuring she'd run us out and be able to take to the air.

I actually accidentally read this thread a few months ago, and when she turned into a dragon I wanted to slap myself. It's my bad for having read this thread, but I was curious. *hangs head*

So yeah, a lesser globe of invulnerability against an 11th level sorcerer (me) is just mean, especially when my primary tactic was to use a lesser rod of empower on lightning bolts. If we'd been smart, we would have retreated, let that spell go down, and then come back, having me start off the fight with, like, a ray of enfeeblement or something. Anyway, it was fun and frightening.