Help with low-magic variant ranger, cleric, druid

[mfrench]

Hi,
I'm trying to set up a campaign with more subtle magic, so I'm trying to alter a few classes to fit the flavor of the campaign better.

I want to start with the ranger. I'm looking to focus him more on favored enemy, hunting, and stealth. I see some things that I want to borrow from the Scout and the Druid. Also, I guess he might need a new name (is Hunter too bland/already taken?)

Any feedback is appreciated.

Alt. Ranger - Hunter
HD: d8
Skill points: 6+ Int, same Class Skills as ranger
Good BAB
Good Fort, Good Ref, Poor Will

1) Track, Wild Empathy, 1st Favored Enemy
2) Animal Companion (at full class level, not 1/2)
3) Fast Movement +10 ft.; Trackless step [as the druid; doesn't leave a trail in natural surroundings]
4) 2nd Favored Enemy; Tenacious Pursuit [see below]
6) Flawless stride [as scout; can travel through rough terrain without penalty]
8) Swift tracker [as Rgr, no penalty for tracking at base speed, -10 for double speed]; 3rd Fav. En.; Hunter's Dedication [below]
10) Blindsense 30 ft. [as scout, chance to detect invisible/concealed creatures]
12) 4th Favored Enemy; Crippling Strike [below]
15) Track the Trackless [can track pass without trace or similar effect at -20 on Sur. check]
16) 5th Favored Enemy; Implacable Hunt [see below]
18) Freedom of movement [as scout, always in effect]
20) 6th Favored Enemy; Blindsight 30 ft. [as scout, can detect all creatures w/in 30' precisely]

Tenacious Pursuit: a +4 bonus to Con checks against forced march while tracking any Favored Enemy against which you have a +4 or better.

Hunter's Dedication: add your Con bonus to Will saves with regards to spells/effects from any Favored Enemy against which you have a bonus of at least +6.

Lesser Crippling Strike [like the Rogue class feature]: A successful strike against certain opponents also deals 1 point of Str damage. This applies to melee attacks, or ranged within 30'. This works against any Favored Enemy against which your bonus is +8 (i.e., chosen four times) or greater.

Track the Trackless: This character can track a creature moving under the influence of pass without trace, or a similar effect, though he takes a -20 penalty on Survival checks to do so.

Implacable Hunt: Against any favored enemy w/ bonus of at least +10 that you wound that escapes, the ranger always knows the direction and the approx. distance to his target (within 10%). If the target is within 50', the ranger knows its exact location. It only works for one foe at a time (of the ranger's choosing from those that he's wounded).

So he has lost: automatic Combat Style feats at 2,6,11,16; Endurance is partially melded into Fav. Enemy; Evasion at 9; Camouflage at 13; Hide in Plain Sight at 17; all spell-casting capabilities.


Thanks!

 

[Vrecknidj]

My first impression is that this is okay. I'm assuming you're eliminating spell casting for the ranger? It appears as though the class might be a little heavy on the special abilities, but we can't see how this affects balance until it's been playtested.

Dave

 

[mfrench]

I'm assuming you're eliminating spell casting for the ranger? It appears as though the class might be a little heavy on the special abilities, but we can't see how this affects balance until it's been playtested.

Yes, I've eliminated his spellcasting. And yes, he is heavy on the special abilities. The thing I'm worried about is being "top-heavy", or too good at low levels, but with diminishing effectiveness.

I think I should flesh out the concept I'm going for a little more:
1) An effective hunter, so he needs to have a good attack bonus. Or, maybe if he has the Medium BAB, give him a +1 to hit as a part of his Favored Enemy, and move that ability to wherever the BAB stalls (i.e., 1, 5, 9, 13, 17)?
2) An incomparable tracker. I wanted him to be able to track over any terrain. I also like the idea that he can't be tracked.
3) I wanted to keep supernatural connection to nature: Wild emp, animal companion. I added in venom immunity for this, but I'm not 100% comfortable with it there.

Things that might be extraneous:
- Fast movement (but I've removed the monk, so I thought another class might get it)
- Evasion being moved up (or should I just cut it entirely?)

In terms of placement, I wonder if Swift Tracking, Evasion, and Venom Immunity should be moved back, and if Camouflage and Hide in Plain Sight ought to be bumped up (as they are for the scout).

Thanks for the thoughts Dave.

Mike

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Seems pretty good. I always thought it made sense to give rangers fast movement. Swift tracker definitely shouldn't get pushed back (this is a hunter class, right?) Evasion could stay or go. If you take it out, to replace it, perhaps you should look at the "bloodhound" PrC from Complete Adventurer (I think). They get a "mark" ability that gives them very useful abilities for hunting down a particular person. Also, they get the ability to turn any blow that would have killed the enemy instead into one that reduces them to zero or -1. I forget exactly, don't have access to my books right now. But if you really want to go with a bounty hunter feel, the ability to bring back their quarry alive could be useful.

 

[mfrench]

Swift tracker definitely shouldn't get pushed back (this is a hunter class, right?)

Yeah, agreed.

Evasion could stay or go. If you take it out, to replace it, perhaps you should look at the "bloodhound" PrC from Complete Adventurer (I think). They get a "mark" ability that gives them very useful abilities for hunting down a particular person. Also, they get the ability to turn any blow that would have killed the enemy instead into one that reduces them to zero or -1. I forget exactly, don't have access to my books right now. But if you really want to go with a bounty hunter feel, the ability to bring back their quarry alive could be useful.

I had that PrC in the back of my mind somewhere, thanks for bringing it up. I looked it up today; you were right on about the mark thing, but I want them to be more like foe hunters, finding their favored enemies and bringing them down. However, you have pointed me to some class features that I should bring up:

Track the Trackless: This character can track a creature moving under the influence of pass without trace, or a similar effect, though he takes a -20 penalty on Survival checks to do so.

Lesser Crippling Strike [like the Rogue class feature]: A successful strike also deals 1 point of Str damage. This applies to melee attacks, or ranged within 30'. For a Bloodhound, it only works on marks. I was thinking maybe it would go toward any Favored Enemy against which your bonus is +8 (i.e., chosen four times). This would mean that you get it at 12th level, at the earliest.

Tenacious Pursuit: a +4 bonus to Con checks against forced march while tracking any Favored Enemy against which you have a +4 or better.

Hunter's Dedication: add your Con bonus to Will saves with regards to spells/effects from any Favored Enemy against which you have a bonus of +6.


I have edited the first post to reflect these changes (dropping venom and evasion altogether).

Thanks for the input.

Mike

 

[Arkhandus]

Looks like an aweful lot added in just to replace a few measly 1st-4th level spells and one or two other ranger abilities. I'd remove at least one or two of the abilities. Tenacious Pursuit is rather excessive since they already get Endurance at 2nd-level. Hide In Plain Sight or Camouflage should probably be removed as well. Crippling Strike is rather strong; it doesn't require sneak attacks (thus it doesn't require at least flanking, surprising, or bluffing the target), and the class will be able to apply it rather frequently it seems. Perhaps reduce it to 1 point of Strength damage per hit against such favored enemies. Let the poor rogue keep at least some kind of sneakiness/assassination advantage.

So far as I can tell, BTW, Track the Trackless would allow the high-level ranger to track other rangers and druids that are using Trackless Step. IIRC, TS functions merely like Pass Without Trace in natural surroundings.

 

[mfrench]

Looks like an aweful lot added in just to replace a few measly 1st-4th level spells and one or two other ranger abilities. I'd remove at least one or two of the abilities.

Hmm . . . maybe. As a trade for spellcasting, I gave him Freedom of movement, +10' base move, the blindsense and the blindsight. He's also losing Evasion (which caan really save your hide) and the Combat Style Feats, which are more than just the feats since you don't have to qualify for them normally. I wanted this version to be less generally combat-able, but more able to hunt and kill his foes.

In any event, I'll try and keep track in the first post of what I've removed, and what I've added for the sake of reference. I'll work on that tomorrow.

Tenacious Pursuit is rather excessive since they already get Endurance at 2nd-level.

Good point. I think that my solution will be to simply remove Endurance (which I'd accidentally done when I first started this post). If someone really wants to go on long forced-march wild goose chases, they can just take Endurance on their own.

Hide In Plain Sight or Camouflage should probably be removed as well.

I'm not crazy about that, because they really fit the style that I'm going for, and without them, the ranger would have all of its abilities up front, giving less incentive for higher levels. I would, however, consider tying them into the favored enemy levels that they're closest to, so that they can hide effectively from those that they truly hate.

Crippling Strike is rather strong; it doesn't require sneak attacks (thus it doesn't require at least flanking, surprising, or bluffing the target), and the class will be able to apply it rather frequently it seems. Perhaps reduce it to 1 point of Strength damage per hit against such favored enemies. Let the poor rogue keep at least some kind of sneakiness/assassination advantage.

Also a very good point. I will apply this advice as well, so as not to tread on the rogue too much.

So far as I can tell, BTW, Track the Trackless would allow the high-level ranger to track other rangers and druids that are using Trackless Step. IIRC, TS functions merely like Pass Without Trace in natural surroundings.

Yeah, I think that's pretty much the function of track the trackless. PWT says that the recipient cannot be tracked without magical means . . . I figured this was supernatural enough to count. When tracking with the -20, that removes all of the ranger's ranks and probably his Wis bonus as well, he'll have a tough time following much of anyone with any significant lead.

Maybe it should be like an Improved Uncanny Dodge with rangers thing, you can track any trackless ranger, unless he's got 4 more levels of ranger than you . . . I'll have to think about it.

Also, I just dug out Masters of the Wild, the old 3.0 ranger/barbarian/druid book, and it has a "Foe Hunter" PrC. I'll have to skim his abilities, and see if I can sub anything in.

Thanks alot for the good comments, I'll mess with this more tomorrow.

Mike

 

[Sugarmouse]

Privateer Press...

... actually released a magic-less variant of the Ranger, which I am currently using.

I love that variant.

They used to have a free-to-download PDF with some quick adaptions before the Campaign Book came out. Don't know if it is still floating around, though.

 

[Arkhandus]

Well, mfrench's version of the ranger is supposed to be more of a low-magic, no-spells ranger, not simply a no-magic ranger. Freedom of Movement, Animal Companion (in 3.5 at least), Trackless Step, Track the Trackless, and Blindsight could hardly be considered mundane.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Freedom of Movement, Animal Companion (in 3.5 at least), Trackless Step, Track the Trackless, and Blindsight could hardly be considered mundane.

Well....

Actually, they could.

But yes, they're not usually, if that's what you mean.