Helpless But Standing

[El Mahdi]

I'm with Jacob Marley on this one, though I'd want coup de grace considerably beefed up (though I beef it up anyways in my games, for all situations).

 

[Li Shenron]

A poster on another forum had a good comment--that The Drop Rule should have a range component.

We're thinking a maximum of 15 feet from the target.


I'm also thinking of a simpler tweak. Throw out all the other stuff in the OP, and replace it with these three descriptions of the rule:


1. To have the drop on someone, the attacking character must be within 15 feet of the target when using a ranged weapon.

2. The Drop is only possible when the target is caught flat-footed (as with a guard following a prisoner with a cocked crossbow or a theif that has snuck up on a guard from behind, placing a blade under the guard's chin.)

3. Attack and Damage are carried out normally, but ANY damage cause on the target from the first attack only is considered Massive Damage, and the standard Fort check is made to avoid death.





That seems like a better rule better suited to the job it is supposed to do.

Do what you want, but if you are trying to make it realistic, I don't think it is realistic at all to get such advantage from 15ft away, especially while walking. If the prisoner tries to escape and makes a sudden run/move, there is no reason IMHO why a crossbow shot (perhaps not even a gunshot) would have such massive advantage, unless the guard has some special training (e.g. a feat or class ability).

I would have probably handled the whole thing with the mentioned CdG rules, meaning that the guard should stay adjacent, treating the prisoner as helpless and (if the prisoner tries to escape) calling for an initiative roll. Should the guard win the roll (perhaps I'd grant him a circumstance bonus to Initiative) then he would go first, I'd say the prisoner is still helpless and the attack is a CdG, should the prisoner win Init, then he's not helpless anymore and takes his normal round of actions (full round, I wouldn't call for a surprise round so CdG is allowed to the guard if he wins Init) and thus the guard has no more chance to CdG.

I mean... the whole point of the house rule here is to tell the player (prisoner) that it's very dangerous to try to escape or attack the guard, but not impossible to succeed, right? And if the scenario is switched (player=guard) it tells him that he is in a good position but the prisoner, if quick, can still escape him.

 

[orion90000]

Or simply outpower the PCs with magic. Wand of Disintegration or Finger of Death pointed at them is a lot more threatening than a Crossbow.

Or have the guards threaten a weaker NPC that the PCs have to protect.

As far as the knife to the throat, use the Helpless Defender rules like everyone else has said.

 

[Water Bob]

The problem with the Helpless Defender rule (not the CdG) is that all it does is give you an automatic hit.

In D&D terms, a dagger to the throat, even with an automatic hit, is not that scary starting at Level 2! 1d4 + STR mod damage.

You know you'll survive it.

I'm trying to take that certainty out of the equation.

 

[Empath Negative]

The problem with the Helpless Defender rule (not the CdG) is that all it does is give you an automatic hit.

In D&D terms, a dagger to the throat, even with an automatic hit, is not that scary starting at Level 2! 1d4 + STR mod damage.

You know you'll survive it.

I'm trying to take that certainty out of the equation.

Man, what are you missing here.. a CdG can be used against *ANY* helpless defender that is susceptible to crits and this applies to "anyone at your mercy".

If you have a dagger to their throat and are a hairs breadth from slicing it it's a fair bet to say they're at your mercy.

So why the hell we need anything else is something *I* am not grasping.

 

[anest1s]

Simply tell the PC who tries to play "hero" that he died.

On the other hand you can stab someone with a dagger 10 times and he could still survive - so maybe you should just get rid of the HP system?

 

[anest1s]

Man, what are you missing here.. a CdG can be used against *ANY* helpless defender that is susceptible to crits and this applies to "anyone at your mercy".

If you have a dagger to their throat and are a hairs breadth from slicing it it's a fair bet to say they're at your mercy.

So why the hell we need anything else is something *I* am not grasping.

completely at an opponent’s mercy =/= anyone at your mercy

Also it takes a full round action, and you must be 5ft away from your target. You can't ready actions out of combat, and even if you could you wouldn't be able to perform a coup de grace.

For example, as a player I would tell the DM I wanted to roll initative. If I win I get 10 ft away and all is good. If I lose I don't care, because the NPC has no reason to attack me until I try to escape. So the NPC readies an action, which can't be CdG. In my turn I turn around and attack him - I am not helpless 100% now.

 

[Water Bob]

So why the hell we need anything else is something *I* am not grasping.

What I'm thinking about is the CdG (and the Helpless Defender) penalty to the target's DEX.

A character that is subject to either the Helpless Defender rule or the CdG version of it is considered to have DEX 0, which gives him a -5 AC. The character gets a further -4 AC against melee, which makes it an automatic hit if you're starting at AC 10.

I can see a prisoner covered by a crossbow to be flatfooted, but I have a harder time thinking the prisoner is DEX 0.




Plus...we're looking at a rule (Helpless Defender and CdG) that is designed for victims that are sleeping or bound to the point that they can't defend themselves.

I would think that a prisoner covered by a crossbow, or even a guard with a knife to this throat, would have a better chance of living through the situation than the unconscious or completely bound fellow.

That's where I've been coming from.

 

[Water Bob]

On the other hand you can stab someone with a dagger 10 times and he could still survive - so maybe you should just get rid of the HP system?

10 successful attacks with a dagger doesn't really mean, in reality, that the target was stabbed with the dagger 10 times. That's not how the HP system works.

 

[El Mahdi]

The problem with the Helpless Defender rule (not the CdG) is that all it does is give you an automatic hit.

In D&D terms, a dagger to the throat, even with an automatic hit, is not that scary starting at Level 2! 1d4 + STR mod damage.

You know you'll survive it.

I'm trying to take that certainty out of the equation.

I think there are some misunderstandings here.

First, the definition of a Helpless Defender does not provide an automatic hit using a regular attack. The automatic hit is only if one is using a coup de grace.

The difference between using a regular attack and a coup de grace (besides whether it's an automatic hit or not, and the damage dealt), is that the regular attack is a Standard Action and the coup de grace is a Full Round Action.

If the Regular Attack is used, an attack roll is made against the target. If using a melee weapon, the target has a -4 penalty to AC, and their Dexterity is considered zero (-5 Dex Bonus)...for a total of -9 to the targets AC. If a ranged weapon is used, there is no -4 penalty to AC (so only the -5 for Dex).

If the coup de grace is used (the Full Round Action), then it's an automatic hit, which is treated as an automatic crit. So, in the case of a dagger, the damage would be (1d4 x 2) + Modifiers (not just 1d4 + Modifiers).

Though I know, that's still not very much damage. However, coup de grace goes on to say that if the target survives the damage (which they likely do), they then have to make a Save vs. Fortitude at DC10 + damage dealt, or immediately die (reduce to -10 Hit Points).

That save though isn't very difficult as one goes up in levels either.



As a houserule, I'd suggest beefing up the coup de grace. Maybe like this:

In a situation where you already have the target in a helpless position (got the drop on them), I'd let coup de grace be an immediate action (reaction). Or, if that seems too powerful, allow opposing initiative rolls to see if the target can move quicker (to interpose a hand, shift enough to avoid a critical wound, etc.). If opposed initiative is used, then success by the target reduces the attack to a regular attack rather than a coup de grace, but at the same penalties as for a helpless defender (they got the drop on you, no matter what you're getting cut!).

Then, change the damage to not just a crit, but a crit with maximum damage (no matter what) - and add the attackers level or BAB to the Save DC.

Now it's got some teeth!

Man, what are you missing here.. a CdG can be used against *ANY* helpless defender that is susceptible to crits and this applies to "anyone at your mercy".


If you have a dagger to their throat and are a hairs breadth from slicing it it's a fair bet to say they're at your mercy.


So why the hell we need anything else is something *I* am not grasping.

The problem is that the rules are a tad vague on what exactly "at your mercy" means. I believe it's the same thing that you believe it is, but not all DM's or Players interpret it this way.

For Water Bob's purposes, I'd just add a houserule for his games, and make sure the players know upfront, that "got the drop on you" equals "at their mercy".