Heroes of Horror: Archivist

[Rystil Arden]

Good thing the archivist isn´t a cleric.

Check Bless Weapon again--it targets anybody's weapon. The real killers aren't the self-only round/level buffs (as long as we make sure never to let in Divine Metamagic + Persistant combo at least) but things like this.

I'm actually playing an Archivist in Shackled City. She isn't a combat Archivist--she has 6 Strength. Despite my opinion that she shouldn't have Bless Weapon at level 1, the GM allowed it, and she's been buffing the party with it ever since to devastating effect. It changed the dynamics of the battle at the end of Life's Bazaar--one of the guys had such a high AC that one of the characters could only hit on a critical threat, so it made every attack into a crit.

 

[Someone]

Good for you. I´ve played clerics, and used also things like Cause Fear, Bless and Shield of faith to "devastating effects". But excuse me if I don´t understand your argment at all; since you agree that short lived self buffs are not much of a problem, the entire case rests solely on Bless Weapon´s shoulders.

Therefore it goes something like this: We should keep Domains just after Druid because moving them to the bottom of the list, even when it´d solve some other problems (like the potential level dancing, or a player that doesn´t own a splatbook not knowing that a spell is of a level instead of another), would make Bless Weapon 1st level instead of 2nd, which would make the gods of balance wail in anguish and tear their hair off.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Let's not get snarky, please. The other option, which is also a viable one, is to simply disallow Paladin and Ranger only spells, considering them to be likely to be misleveled. I would stand behind that choice as well. I would not stand behind the choice to put Rangers and Paladins first, however. It is not Bless Weapon (since that's in an SRD domain), but it is more importantly new spells that could be the biggest troubles. A lot of spells in later supplements would have to be considered for an Archivist as well as the intended Paladin or Ranger and that might delay its approval if its abusable for an Archivist. Actually, that may be a reason to just not allow them--it's definitely something to think about.

 

[Someone]

Let's not get snarky, please

Sorry, the end of my last post wasn´t addressed at you. I absolutely don´t think you´re a god.

The other option, which is also a viable one, is to simply disallow Paladin and Ranger only spells, considering them to be likely to be misleveled.

That will solve the problems I was talking about how, exactly? Quoting myself:

like the potential level dancing, or a player that doesn´t own a splatbook [where new domains appear] not knowing that a spell is of a level instead of another

 

[Rystil Arden]

It sort of seemed like you might have been addressing me as a Cleric of such gods, though

As to how removing the Ranger and Paladin spells would stop the dancing--it actually would prevent any spells from going to a higher level at least, since new spells never enter the Adept spell list. If we allow Domains at all, of course, there's a possibility to dance lower, but I actually don't have a problem with allowing a spell to dance lower--in that case, the Archivist would need to learn the spell again from someone who had it as a low-level domain spell and then it would go lower (or something like that). The only way to fix your concern (which is absolutely a valid concern, no matter any of the things I've mentioned above) is to disallow Domain spells from the Archivist, which I don't think we should do.

 

[Someone]

I wasn´t actually worried about having the same spell on two domains, since it creates the same kind of problem the player faces when he doesn´t own the splatbook. I assumed -same as you posted- that since the two domais have equal validity, both spell levels should be correct, and therefore legal. My concern, which seen in perspective is very little, was that a unique spell in the ranger, paladin or adept list could go in a new domain, invalidating the old level; this is what was called "level dance", not the possibility of more than one level on different domains. The number of candidate spells is very low, but as a theoretical construt, it´s possible, and (among others?) include the following spells (I don´t have the 3.5 DMG handy, but I suppose the Adept list hasn´t changed a lot since 3.0): Sleep, Burning hands, Mirror Image, See invisibility, Web, Lightning Bolt, Wall of Fire, Minor Creation and possibly one polymorph spell.

Notice that after making the list I had to remove two spells that were already in some domain with the correct level. It´s a major hassle to double check every domain to make sure you got it right; or course it only happens with non-cleric, non-druid spells, but those are exactly the kind of spells the archivist´player is looking for .

On a unrelated tangent, notice how banning paladin and ranger only spells* is the equivalent of banning their entire spell list, since the non-banned come from the higher priority Cleric or Druid list anyway and for all effects, don´count: it´s like if they didn´t exists. Careful, I don´t see it as a bad thing because most of those unique are unusable by the archivist anyway, since they deal with mounts, animal companions or favored enemies, or their level are calculated for when the paladin or ranger can get them and not having the Archivist in mind.

*I mean those that only appear on paladin or ranger spell lists.

So, I don´t see as a too bad solution to ban Paladin and Ranger lists and move Domains behind Adepts.

 

[Rystil Arden]

So, I don´t see as a too bad solution to ban Paladin and Ranger lists and move Domains behind Adepts.

That's what I was thinking too.

 

[drothgery]

How about making general rule that if a spell only appears on the spell lists of classes that have no spells higher than level 4, it's unavailable to the archivist. This knocks out unique paladin spells, unique ranger spells, and PrC minor caster spells in one shot.

 

[Rystil Arden]

How about making general rule that if a spell only appears on the spell lists of classes that have no spells higher than level 4, it's unavailable to the archivist. This knocks out unique paladin spells, unique ranger spells, and PrC minor caster spells in one shot.

A lot of the PrC minor casters will sometimes go to 5, but that could be a good idea for a rule of thumb. We don't want to allow PrC casters though, period, even if they are 9 level casters (like the Sublime Chord)

 

[Bront]

You see, this is why I think we should ignore domains for the Archivist unless he can find someone who can teach it to him from a domain. Makes things simpler, and I don't think that the archivist is unbalanced by getting some spells 1 level higher, given all the other cleric goodies he's giving up.