D&D 5E Heroes of Legend: King Arthur (creature entry)

[Jmarso]

Additionally, even if everything I mentioned above wasn't true, there is no rule that says in order to be inclusive, you have to change everyone into someone they weren't originally. That's pretty disingenuous.

Uh-huh. What's disingenuous is only doing it to the traditionally white characters- I've never seen it done any other way. And on that note, I'm done derailing the thread. I've said my piece on it, AFAIC. Lay on another warning or the ban hammer if it soothes your sense of social justice.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Sadly that went as expected. I was hoping for once it would be different. I was hoping someone would look at facts (population demographics) rather double down on preconceived biases (you're just pandering!) The optimist in me I suppose. Should have known better.

Edit: also, to anyone who is foolish enough to claim it never happens to PoC who are changed to white people, let me introduce you to a fella named Jesus.

 

[Umbran]

Anti-inclusive? Better check the dictionary, pal.

Mod Note:
Morrus, the owner of the site, told you to not post in this thread again.

If you have a problem with that, you should take it up with him in private message, not in-thread.

And, you'll find that now you cannot post in the thread - Morrus figures folks will listen to him, but we do have a threadban feature.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

God those people are insecure

Anyway, great work as always Sacro, when can we expect this gem of Briton/Welsh/Celt Monster Manual?

and: will there be a sequel for other cultural mythology?

 

[Lyxen]

Tthere were several PoC who were knights of the Round Table, including Sagramore and Palamedes

• When Rome pulled out of Britain roughly 100 years before the time of Arthur (and the battle of Badon Hill), more than 1000 African slaves were left behind, along with the numerous Roman soldiers themselves who were PoC, and looking at the population of southern Britain at that period, it's entirely likely that these people integrated into the society at all levels

There is a world of difference between "there is a possibiity" and "it is entirely likely", and another world betwen "slave" and "society at all levels".

• Even at that time period, travel and trade from all over northern Africa and the Middle East were well established in France and Southern Britain, so even more diversity existed on the Isles than assumed.

Even today, the diversity in england is not extremely high, you know, and with the prejudices and social structures of the era, I really doubt that it was high, especially in the noble houses.

That being said, while it's much more unlikely than probable, it is your fantasy and you can do whatever you like as long as you are describing your myth. But if you are trying to describe the arthurian myth as envisioned by the populace, they will be (apart from specific characters like Palamedes who are not even that well describe and vary according to the source) welsh britons.

Therefore, by portraying Gawain as a PoC, I am not only not virtue signaling, I am reflecting a plausible (or even probable)

And again, there is a world of difference between "plausible" and "probable".

There you go. And knowing is half the battle.

You are doing a fantastic job about these characters, and the illustrations are really nice, nothing shocked me there, this if YOUR fantasy and it's incredibly cool (and thank you for this), but this answer trying too hard to justify your choices and using articles about probabilities in what I believe is really a wrong way slightly bugged me to be honest.

 

[Sacrosanct]

God those people are insecure

Anyway, great work as always Sacro, when can we expect this gem of Briton/Welsh/Celt Monster Manual?

and: will there be a sequel for other cultural mythology?

It's not just Briton/Welsh/Celt. It's primarily northern and western European, and while creatures are a big part (roughly 200), there are significant sections around the realm, lore, and behavior of the mythological worlds as they appeared as close to historical as possible as opposed to how they've been depicted in modern history and media. That's a challenge because often the myths of the same person conflict (in particular Arthurian legends), so I have to pretty much pick which version to use.

An example of what I mean by historically accurate vs modern depictions is the kobold. Most gamers view them as draconic evil creatures (or dog-like depending on your edition you prefer). But according to lore, this is how they will actually appear in the book:

More neutral in attitude, with a twist on appearance based on the cobalt they were known for mining.

As for other mythologies, I've steered away from other cultures for wanting to avoid cultural appropriation. Everything in this book will either be from a culture I share a heritage with, or one of my main contributors does. I would love to explore other mythologies, but that is out of scope. If this book does well, then perhaps I could afford cultural consultants from each culture that would be included. We'll see.

 

[Sacrosanct]

There is a world of difference between "there is a possibiity" and "it is entirely likely", and another world betwen "slave" and "society at all levels".

The PoC at the time the Romans left were not just slaves. They were soldiers, and some high ranking officials. They were also in general better health than what we think of when we think of slave (because we think about how the US treated slaves compared to how the Romans did), and I don't think it's likely that Roman soldiers, or all of these other people, just didn't have any children after they left. Looking at how many PoC were there (thanks again Luca and Andy for the data they gave me), and yes, it is entirely likely.

Even today, the diversity in england is not extremely high, you know, and with the prejudices and social structures of the era, I really doubt that it was high, especially in the noble houses.

If you don't think noble houses, or regional leaders would have children with PoC (even slaves), then I hate to tell you about the founding fathers of the United States...

But even outside of that, we have evidence of high ranking and/or wealthy people who were of sub-Saharan descent in Britain as early as the 3rd century.

That being said, while it's much more unlikely than probable, it is your fantasy and you can do whatever you like as long as you are describing your myth. But if you are trying to describe the arthurian myth as envisioned by the populace, they will be (apart from specific characters like Palamedes who are not even that well describe and vary according to the source) welsh britons.



And again, there is a world of difference between "plausible" and "probable".



You are doing a fantastic job about these characters, and the illustrations are really nice, nothing shocked me there, this if YOUR fantasy and it's incredibly cool (and thank you for this), but this answer trying too hard to justify your choices and using articles about probabilities in what I believe is really a wrong way slightly bugged me to be honest.

Thank you, but the more I learned about the actual history, the more likely it all seemed to be, and much less fantasy (in so far as we all agree Arthurian legends were all fantasy, but based on real life individuals), and more reality. Sure, with each generation the gene pool became "more white", but the time of Arthur was less than 100 years after the Romans left, so there were only three generations or so between the two time periods. Close enough that it is in fact entirely probable that at least one of the knights we thought were always white were in fact not.

 

[Sacrosanct]

God those people are insecure

Anyway, great work as always Sacro, when can we expect this gem of Briton/Welsh/Celt Monster Manual?

and: will there be a sequel for other cultural mythology?

Another example are the Jötunn (Norse giants). Fans of fantasy envision them as literal giants, thanks to games like D&D, video games, etc. But they weren't. Most of them were the same size as the gods and everyone else. Certainly some of them were giant (and some were shapechanged, and different creatures altogether), but those were almost exclusively unique names special giants, and not Jötunn in general.

So their stat blocks would look something like this (note, these are initial versions, and not final):

With uniquely names giants like:

 

[Sacrosanct]

Arthurian legends continue...

 

[Sacrosanct]

some updates. Attached is the Dispirited version of Arthur (after he lost Excalibur and went into a funk), as well as his arch rival and nephew, Mordred.