D&D (2024) Heroes of the Borderlands

[GreyLord]

KotB was never a horror adventure. It was always a Western. And like really old Westerns it had white hats and black hats. But westerns had already moved on from that by the 1970s.

None of the adventures are really horror (not even Ravenloft).

It's HOW the monsters were perceived though. They are seen more as you may see evil army ants or evil fire ants than a bunch of cuddly cut puppies with a rabid mother.

As someone else pointed out in the thread previously, these "children" will easily ravage and eat you to a skeletal figure the moment you drop your guard or turn your back on them. There is no changing their nature. Even as children they have one desire and that is either to destroy you or eat you...and they cannot be controlled.

These are monsters. This is Chaos. This is the darkness that threatens to overwhelm us on the edge of civilization. You may not see it as horror, but Chaos are the things that go bump in the night and will kill you just for pleasure if you let them. If allowed to go uncontrolled, it will destroy all civilization and those within it. That's what you are trying to stop in the Keep of the Borderlands. It's not just Orcs but ALL manner of things that will overwhelm and destroy humanity and those who ally with it.

Is that horror? For some it may be. For others its an adventure.

But's it is more Cthulu and ancient evils than how some would want to relate to it today...which is probably what you refer to as a Western.

At least, originally.

NOW...obviously there are different viewpoints. The difficulty is to allow those with a different viewpoint of monsters to also be able to enjoy the adventure while keeping the spirit of the old alive.

No longer is it seen more of a fort on the border of civilization and the wilds where the wilds and the ghost, goblins, and strange monsters threaten to take it all back to chaos...

Into that, seeing it more as the frontier town threatened by Native Americans (which is what I think you are referring to. However, this wasn't the original intent, it was more of a holding back the unknown darkness and chaos from overcoming civilization) is far more preferable to many, as that adds a far more difficult plateau to resolve. On the otherhand, it brings up a problem the original did not have...that where it can become distinctly racist. Many WANT that complication, but that in itself brings other problems.

So, adapting it to modern audiences that do not see the mystery and chaos as the same thing as it was originally conceived as can be a difficult balance beam to traverse. However, this is the challenge which those remaking it for D&D 2024 face. I expect they will do a good job of it. Whether it will still have monster babies to figure out how to handle...we'll see, but some today want that moral dilemma while others do not. HOW to balance between that and other social issues that can arise is a tough thing to write for at times.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

It's HOW the monsters were perceived though. They are seen more as you may see evil army ants or evil fire ants than a bunch of cuddly cut puppies with a rabid mother

They were never “monsters”, they were always humans in rubber masks (and black hats). The 1970s was four hundred years too late for players to see them as just monsters.

 

[GreyLord]

They were never “monsters”, they were always humans in rubber masks (and black hats). The 1970s was four hundred years too late for players to see them as just monsters.

?????

Okay. You do you. I'm not so sure you speak for the everyone who played back then though.

PS Edit: I may add, Cthulu was less than 50 years old at that point I believe...and LotR was less than 30...so I'm not so sure your hundreds of years is accurate...but those two groups (along with Conan, and others) were probably more popular when I started in the 70s than the more modern fantasy we have today where things may be a tad more complicated in how we view these types of creatures.

 

[mamba]

Modern preferences for many is to see monsters as sympathetic beings that may not simply be monsters or horrors of the night, but humans of a different form.

not just that, also more of a plot than ‘murder every animal in this zoo’ (every creature crammed into these caves without rhyme or reason)

As time progressed, the way of playing races and humans with different faces has gained momentum and popularity. You need not look any further than TSR novels to see elves and dwarves portrayed basically as humans would be

agreed, all races are just humans in costumes

 

[Remathilis]

You may have never dealt with fire ants.

(And Fireants aren't even EVIL! At least not like how Orcs of old were. Fireants may actually eat and kill babies [has happened, rare, but happens], but that's not due to them simply being evil. Half Orcs were NOT products of loving homes originally...though getting into how Half Orcs were formed probably would be somewhat troublesome in commenting here).

Even in the real world, there are some things that, even if they have children and are biological, you don't really want to sympathize with.

I don't think anyone has ever been condemned legally for killing fire ants. Countless stories of how people hate them.

Compared to the Orcs of old...Fire ants would actually be the GOOD GUYS...if that says anything about HOW orcs would be viewed originally.

Fire ants are not sentient, language using creatures capable of complex emotions. Orcs have been depicted as such. If you want Orks (sentient fungi capable of only limited sentience and emotion) then define them as such. Instead, you literally said "orcs are like vermin" and I don't think I need to say what that sounds like.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

You may have never dealt with fire ants.

(And Fireants aren't even EVIL! At least not like how Orcs of old were. Fireants may actually eat and kill babies [has happened, rare, but happens], but that's not due to them simply being evil. Half Orcs were NOT products of loving homes originally...though getting into how Half Orcs were formed probably would be somewhat troublesome in commenting here).

Even in the real world, there are some things that, even if they have children and are biological, you don't really want to sympathize with.

I don't think anyone has ever been condemned legally for killing fire ants. Countless stories of how people hate them.

Compared to the Orcs of old...Fire ants would actually be the GOOD GUYS...if that says anything about HOW orcs would be viewed originally.

I'm not sure if you're aware, but fire ants aren't sentient beings with the capacity to learn and change.

Gygax's gross attitudes should remain buried in the past. A starter adventure should be a fun introduction to the mechanics, not crap that grinds the game to a halt with ethical debates, like deciding what to do with orc babies.

 

[GreyLord]

Fire ants are not sentient, language using creatures capable of complex emotions. Orcs have been depicted as such. If you want Orks (sentient fungi capable of only limited sentience and emotion) then define them as such. Instead, you literally said "orcs are like vermin" and I don't think I need to say what that sounds like.

Actually I said Fire Ants would be the GOOD GUYS compared to what Orcs would be like.

How do you know that Fire Ants are not Sentient...there are studies that indicate ants actually ARE sentient.

In fact, Fire Ants would be PREFERABLE to what Orcs would have been considered as originally at the time.

Orcs were creatures of Chaos, not individual humans who had freedom to choose their path (or alignment) in life. They were more like Elder Things and Dark Ones than Cuddly Wolves.

 

[GreyLord]

I'm not sure if you're aware, but fire ants aren't sentient beings with the capacity to learn and change.

Gygax's gross attitudes should remain buried in the past. A starter adventure should be a fun introduction to the mechanics, not crap that grinds the game to a halt with ethical debates, like deciding what to do with orc babies.

Different things are liked by different people.

Do you also dislike Alien and Aliens for certain premises? Do you sympathize with the Aliens instead of the Humans in those movies?

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Different things are liked by different people.

Do you also dislike Alien and Aliens for certain premises? Do you sympathize with the Aliens instead of the Humans in those movies?

You're free to add all the heroic baby murder you want.

 

[Remathilis]

Different things are liked by different people.

Do you also dislike Alien and Aliens for certain premises? Do you sympathize with the Aliens instead of the Humans in those movies?

I'm going to assume you watched Starship Troopers and missed the point.

GG .