Heroic Classes

[Incenjucar]

Paragon paths et all are basically

"Okay, you are a level 11 rogue. Pick a color."

"What?"

"Pick a color."

"Um... blue?"

"Okay, from now on you'll be an Ice Rogue. By level 21, your sneak attacks will be able to freeze opponents to the ground by chilling their blood."

"What if I had picked red?"

"Then your sneak attacks would have set them on fire instead."

Same mechanics, but with some new special effects on the side for added nifty.

 

[Irda Ranger]

Paragon paths et all are basically

<snip>

Same mechanics, but with some new special effects on the side for added nifty.

I am wildly impressed by your ability to know these things before any of us actually have the rules. Are you a playtester?

And I would love to know how a Paragon Path that adds an energy type to Sneak Attacks would be useful to 2-4 of the Heroic Classes.

 

[Incenjucar]

Take your hostile tone elsewhere. This isn't the place for it.

It's how they've been described. Obviously, my description was abstract and simplified, but that's what they've described. Basically, you progress as a normal class, but with some extra stuff that gets tacked on to it.

With PrCs, you're just multiclassing.

 

[tecnowraith]

So I was right from the beginning of the announcement that the 2nd ed Kits are coming back for 4e in a new way.

 

[Irda Ranger]

Take your hostile tone elsewhere. This isn't the place for it.

I don't think it was "hostile", but you're right. I saw your post as snarky and responded in kind; I shouldn't have. If your post was an honest opinion, I apologize ...

It's how they've been described. Obviously, my description was abstract and simplified, but that's what they've described. Basically, you progress as a normal class, but with some extra stuff that gets tacked on to it.

... but I think you're wrong in the details. I don't think your description was "simplified"; it was a mischaracterization. Although paths are layered on top of classes, it's a bit more complex than "pick a color; you're a Fire/Ice Rogue now." PC's have always grown and changed as they leveled up; 4E is simply recognizing this and creating pre-made packages to realize that growth. In 3E you used to say "I want to be a Cavalier, so what Feats and Skills should I take to make that work?" Now instead its presented as a package.

This is a Good Thing because the packages can be balanced against each other at the "package level", which allows you a lot more flexibility at the individual power level. This means that the powers are capable of being a lot more interesting and cool. Simply reducing it to "pick a color" seems dismissive of the work that went into creating them, and ... well, it rubs me the wrong way. I can't put it any better than that.

 

[Incenjucar]

I was simply being facetious. I'm quite delighted at the rules as a whole, and I'm looking forward to 4E to the point where I'm buying at least one of the promotional books, which is patently unusual for me. Don't let the grognards get to you.

The gist of it is that classes get an additional layer as they go, allowing them to continue their original character concept while making them more unique and more interesting. It allows characters to get "promotions" without outright switching job descriptions, and without falling behind on their primary class(es).

It's going to be great being able to pick up, say, one of those "start a special relationship with a weapon" Prestige Concepts without having to fall behind actual expertise with that weapon in relation with other fighters.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The pathes and destinies seem to be a good way to avoid the spellcaster prestige class problem - many PrCs actually don't require you to give up anything of your core class (full spell caster levels), and instead other benefits. Those that require you to lose caster levels are usually not such a good idea, because spellcasting is still your #1 priority and if you fall back, it will hurt, and few class abilities can compensate that.

 

[Varianor Abroad]

Although I thought the new edition was supposed to reduce complexity, not increase it? The paths sound sensible in that they aren't Prestige Classes, they just add on, and all at the same time. (In theory reducing cherry picking for abilities.) However, if everyone gets one, then yes, later books will be splatfull of stuff for them.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Although I thought the new edition was supposed to reduce complexity, not increase it? The paths sound sensible in that they aren't Prestige Classes, they just add on, and all at the same time. (In theory reducing cherry picking for abilities.) However, if everyone gets one, then yes, later books will be splatfull of stuff for them.

But what is more complex? Having to plan for a Prestige Class and taking its 3 required feats, 2 required skills, and combining the right 2 classes to get it, or just picking a set of new, additional abilities you get at level 11, and do the same at level 21?

I think the latter is less complex. Yes, the "ability per level" ratio increases, but you don't have to micromanage your character each level to ensure that at some "magical" point you qualify for your favored Prestige Class.

But that said, I am not really sure that complexity will be - overall - reduced that much. But it seems to shift its places, hopefully so it's more manageable and easier to get an overview on. (Maybe that alone is really reducing complexity, but maybe it's more the difference between "complex" and "complicated").

 

[Gloombunny]

The pathes and destinies seem to be a good way to avoid the spellcaster prestige class problem - many PrCs actually don't require you to give up anything of your core class (full spell caster levels), and instead other benefits. Those that require you to lose caster levels are usually not such a good idea, because spellcasting is still your #1 priority and if you fall back, it will hurt, and few class abilities can compensate that.

It seems like a terrible way to solve it, IMO. Now every class has the problem that there's no reason not to take a Path. If there aren't any paths printed that fit your character concept, you're just screwed.

This is probably the first thing I'm really unhappy to hear about 4e.