He's Stable!

[Water Bob]

Ah crap. Before I posted, I read through the 3.5 PHB to see if time was mentioned. It is, but I missed it. I didn't see that "standard action" part. I wouldn't have posted that question had I seen that.

I read the skill in my Conan RPG rulebook several times, and no time is mentioned. In fact, the Conan RPG has a use of the Heal skill that is not in standard D&D: Short-Term Care. This allows an ally to clean and sew up wounds, apply herbal poultices, and so on. You can only use Short-Term Care on a conscious patient (HP 1+), and if successful, the, the patient regains HP = to patient's Level + CON modifier, to a minimum of 1 HP.

Performing Short-Term Care takes 10 minutes.





So, I read that, and I thought about First Aid. It doesn't seem likely to me that, on average, a character can stop another from dying in around 3 seconds (a standard action). I understand the need to roll the check to stop the HP loss, but, c'mon. How believeable is this?

Taurl goes down from his wounds. It's an abstract system, so we really don't know what wound he has, but we do know that the wound is bad enough that the character will likely be dead in less than a minute if someone doesn't do something to help him.

Think about that. If a character goes down with -1 HP, and he doesn't stabilize on his own, he's dead in 54 seconds (9 combat rounds later).

So....we're talking about a pretty serious wound here. We're talking blood loss, trauma, bad bodily damage. 54 seconds, or less, and the character prolly dies.

Dead.

And, someone can just pop over, spend 3 or 4 seconds with the character, and he's no longer dying?

Really?

Totally gamist.





Do you guys just allow this in your games? I'm thinking of going old school on this. The stabilization roll will be allowed if the player can tell me what his character is doing.

For example, Taurl goes down. I see he's got -4 HP, and I decide that his foe must have run his sword all the way through Taurl's gut. After all, the guy is dead in 36 seconds if he doesn't get stable.

I'm not just going to allow a player to run over to him and roll a die check. I want to know what the character is doing to help Taurl. Going to stop the bleeding? Ok, how? Going to put a bandage on the entry and exit wound? Fine. What are you going to use for a bandage?

Use your own character's shirt. OK. Pull it off, cut it in two. You need a rope or something, yes? Going to use Taurl's own weapon belt? OK.

All of this takes time. The player providing aid isn't going to be able to run over to a downed comrade, spend a standard action on him, and then get back in the fight. He's going to have to spend some time on his buddy, helping him live.

In most case, I expect that helping a downed comrade will take a character out of the fight. It will probably take "minutes" to get someone stabilized.





Now, I'm not going to be an ogre about the First Aid Heal check, though. I'll allow the first check as soon as the help arrives, even though the aid provider hasn't had enough time to evaluate the wound, much less pull any equipment to use.




I expect a First Aid scenario to go something like this...

Character goes down.

Somebody comes to help.

And...we'll come back and finish this after the fight. The care giver will spend several minutes helping the downed character, and by then, the fight will be over.

During the combat, the players will not know if the hurt character survives.

After the combat, provided the caregiver has stayed with the patient the entire time, we'll just make the appropriate rolls per the rules.

In this manner, the rules are served, as written, but the character realistically stays with the downed patient for the time required to help him.





EDIT: Better yet, I think I'll roll the Heal check behind the screen and describe the results. If I make the roll on the very first round, I won't let the players know this until they've done enough with the character for the result to make "sense".

As with Taurl above. He was stabbed through the gut, and the care giver is using his shirt. I'll roll behind the screen on the first round the care giver arrives (when the player is just starting to evaluate the wound.) I'll keep rolling every round, as needed, but keeping the results to myself. The players can roleplay what they're doing to help.

This can turn into some fun drama as I throw them curve balls. "He's starting to convulse and cough up blood! He's shaking! What are you going to do?"

 

[the Jester]

1. On Tarl's turn he checks to see if he stabilizes. On their own turn, other pcs may attempt to apply first aid.

2. Hold on there- first aid isn't necessarily stopping the bleeding, it's stopping imminent death. A standard action is fine; the rest comes 30 seconds later, after the fight is over. YMMV, but you'll probably see a lot more pcs bleed out if you house rule this to screw anyone trying to help them- killing monsters will become far more important than saving your friends.

It is generally a bad idea to change things in D&D to be closer to what you consider to be 'realistic' without careful consideration. Usually there are significant ripples throughout the system.

 

[Jack Simth]

Add in another two if burrowing is an option. And maybe a few more of there are friendly ghosts?

If both Flying and Burrowing are options, you can actually get 26 people in on it before you've got two people in one square. I was simply defending the possibility of a number I pulled off the top of my head.

Totally gamist.

Quite correct. It is. It is to make the game more fun for most players. What started as a somewhat common house rule became an official variant became part of the base game. Why? Fun.

Consider, though: A cleric can burn a 0th-level spell to stabilize someone in that same six seconds. Do you really want to increase the reliance on magic needed in the game? This change you're suggesting will do that.

It is generally a bad idea to change things in D&D to be closer to what you consider to be 'realistic' without careful consideration. Usually there are significant ripples throughout the system.

Very true.

 

[domino]

Yeah, if you prevent someone from being able to simply stabilize them (especially if you want play by play description from someone who probably doesn't actually have medical training) in one round, you're either letting the enemies get a 2 for 1 on the incapacitation, when I imagine EVERYONE is in a fight for their lives, or people will realize that they're in a fight for their lives, and not even bother trying to save anyone.

 

[anest1s]

Ah crap. Before I posted, I read through the 3.5 PHB to see if time was mentioned. It is, but I missed it. I didn't see that "standard action" part. I wouldn't have posted that question had I seen that.

I read the skill in my Conan RPG rulebook several times, and no time is mentioned. In fact, the Conan RPG has a use of the Heal skill that is not in standard D&D: Short-Term Care. This allows an ally to clean and sew up wounds, apply herbal poultices, and so on. You can only use Short-Term Care on a conscious patient (HP 1+), and if successful, the, the patient regains HP = to patient's Level + CON modifier, to a minimum of 1 HP.

Performing Short-Term Care takes 10 minutes.





So, I read that, and I thought about First Aid. It doesn't seem likely to me that, on average, a character can stop another from dying in around 3 seconds (a standard action). I understand the need to roll the check to stop the HP loss, but, c'mon. How believeable is this?

Taurl goes down from his wounds. It's an abstract system, so we really don't know what wound he has, but we do know that the wound is bad enough that the character will likely be dead in less than a minute if someone doesn't do something to help him.

Think about that. If a character goes down with -1 HP, and he doesn't stabilize on his own, he's dead in 54 seconds (9 combat rounds later).

So....we're talking about a pretty serious wound here. We're talking blood loss, trauma, bad bodily damage. 54 seconds, or less, and the character prolly dies.

Dead.

And, someone can just pop over, spend 3 or 4 seconds with the character, and he's no longer dying?

Really?

Totally gamist.





Do you guys just allow this in your games? I'm thinking of going old school on this. The stabilization roll will be allowed if the player can tell me what his character is doing.

For example, Taurl goes down. I see he's got -4 HP, and I decide that his foe must have run his sword all the way through Taurl's gut. After all, the guy is dead in 36 seconds if he doesn't get stable.

I'm not just going to allow a player to run over to him and roll a die check. I want to know what the character is doing to help Taurl. Going to stop the bleeding? Ok, how? Going to put a bandage on the entry and exit wound? Fine. What are you going to use for a bandage?

Use your own character's shirt. OK. Pull it off, cut it in two. You need a rope or something, yes? Going to use Taurl's own weapon belt? OK.

All of this takes time. The player providing aid isn't going to be able to run over to a downed comrade, spend a standard action on him, and then get back in the fight. He's going to have to spend some time on his buddy, helping him live.

In most case, I expect that helping a downed comrade will take a character out of the fight. It will probably take "minutes" to get someone stabilized.





Now, I'm not going to be an ogre about the First Aid Heal check, though. I'll allow the first check as soon as the help arrives, even though the aid provider hasn't had enough time to evaluate the wound, much less pull any equipment to use.




I expect a First Aid scenario to go something like this...

Character goes down.

Somebody comes to help.

And...we'll come back and finish this after the fight. The care giver will spend several minutes helping the downed character, and by then, the fight will be over.

During the combat, the players will not know if the hurt character survives.

After the combat, provided the caregiver has stayed with the patient the entire time, we'll just make the appropriate rolls per the rules.

In this manner, the rules are served, as written, but the character realistically stays with the downed patient for the time required to help him.





EDIT: Better yet, I think I'll roll the Heal check behind the screen and describe the results. If I make the roll on the very first round, I won't let the players know this until they've done enough with the character for the result to make "sense".

As with Taurl above. He was stabbed through the gut, and the care giver is using his shirt. I'll roll behind the screen on the first round the care giver arrives (when the player is just starting to evaluate the wound.) I'll keep rolling every round, as needed, but keeping the results to myself. The players can roleplay what they're doing to help.

This can turn into some fun drama as I throw them curve balls. "He's starting to convulse and cough up blood! He's shaking! What are you going to do?"

I would throw my dice to the DM in that case. Especially if I am not the one dying. And usually I am very polite. Sorry.

 

[Water Bob]

1. On Tarl's turn he checks to see if he stabilizes. On their own turn, other pcs may attempt to apply first aid.

Agreed.

2. Hold on there- first aid isn't necessarily stopping the bleeding, it's stopping imminent death.

The DM tells you that the character has a sword wound that enters left of his navel and exits left of his spine.

What are you doing to stop imminent death?

A standard action is fine; the rest comes 30 seconds later, after the fight is over. YMMV, but you'll probably see a lot more pcs bleed out if you house rule this to screw anyone trying to help them- killing monsters will become far more important than saving your friends.

I realize that the Heal check has to be made as soon as someone arrives at the victim to help him. I said that above.

The only think I'm not doing is allowing a care giver to stay just one round with the patient. The rules remain the same, and I haven't changed them. The dice rolls, that is. I'm just not allowing the care giver to stick out his finger, touch the patient, and say, "Prang! You're stable! See ya! Gotta get back in the fight now!"




Here's how I will play it out.

Taurl goes down. He's at -4 HP.

I figure I'll gauge wounds in three stages. HP -1 to -3 is a killing wound, but not as bad as a HP -4 to -6 wound. And, HP -7 to -9 wounds are the worst. My description of the wound will get worse, depending on which "category" the character's wound falls.

I may get creative with wound effects, too, after a character is healed. Have an eye swollen shut for a while. Give the character a limp for a bit, halving his Speed. Put his arm in a sling. Stuff like that.





Taurl, who went down at -4 HP, has a serious wound that I describe as a sword stroke entirely through his gut. He's probably got internal bleeding, but there's not much these cats can do about that.

What they see is a slice in his gut and an exit wound in his back. They can put a bandage on this, and then put pressure on the bandage to keep it from bleeding so much.

If they've got a healing kit (or if a player has gotten creative with herbalism), maybe there's some concoction made of Wnaa-Wnaa leaves that can be sprinkled on the wound.





Mechanics-wise, I'll roll the Heal check as soon as a care giver arrives to help (and I'll do Taurl's self-stabilization per the rules, too). But, I won't allow the players to know the result, and I may even throw in some fake rolls to keep them guessing.

Then, we'll roleplay the saving of the character's life.

I think that will add a lot to the game and be much more interesting than....Hey, I rolled an 18 on my Heal check! Let's move on!

It is generally a bad idea to change things in D&D to be closer to what you consider to be 'realistic' without careful consideration. Usually there are significant ripples throughout the system.

Agreed. The Law of Unintended Consequences.

But, note, I'm not changing the rules at all. I'm just not allowing the players to know the result of the Heal checks immediately.

And, I'm making them roleplay the care taking of a downed comrade instead of skipping over it with a simple dice throw.

Quite correct. It is. It is to make the game more fun for most players. What started as a somewhat common house rule became an official variant became part of the base game. Why? Fun.

Simply rolling a die check isn't "fun" in my book. It's not even rollplaying. It's more akin to rollplaying.

Like when the PCs enconter a trap. I don't say, "I rolled a Spot check for you, and you found a trap. Go ahead and roll your Disable Device skill."

No...that's awful gaming, in my book.

I want my players to be THERE. I want them to live, breathe, smell, touch the world.

In my game, if I roll a Spot check that indicates one of the PCs spots a trap, I'll say, "Taurl, there's a small, then, straight line shadow you see running across the floor."

This will be the "line" that activates the trap, and I'll sit back and see what the player will do about it.

If he says, "I'll pull out my dagger and carefully cut the line," at that point, I'll roll, or I'll have him roll, his Disable Device skill, to see how well that cut disables the trap. The roll will tell me if he sets it off or not.

But, we'll roleplay most of the enounter, with the results of die throws guiding me on how I describe things to the players.

Consider, though: A cleric can burn a 0th-level spell to stabilize someone in that same six seconds. Do you really want to increase the reliance on magic needed in the game? This change you're suggesting will do that.Very true.

Re-read what I wrote. It's not a change, really. Just a different implementation of the rule.

I'm rolling the dice as RAW directs.

I'm roleplaying the rest.

Oh...and there's no magic in my game. Not yet. I play the Conan RPG. It's a d20 3.5 clone. In this universe, magic is extremely rare and evil. Cleric and Sorcerer aren't even character classes.

 

[Water Bob]

Yeah, if you prevent someone from being able to simply stabilize them (especially if you want play by play description from someone who probably doesn't actually have medical training) in one round, you're either letting the enemies get a 2 for 1 on the incapacitation, when I imagine EVERYONE is in a fight for their lives, or people will realize that they're in a fight for their lives, and not even bother trying to save anyone.

You guys aren't reading my post. I think you all must be skimming.

Re-read what I wrote.

I would throw my dice to the DM in that case. Especially if I am not the one dying. And usually I am very polite. Sorry.

If a player threw his dice at me, I'd kick his butt out of the game so fast that he'd know just how fast a standard action really is.

Now....go back and re-read my post....then tell me why you think you're getting different throws that what RAW allows.

 

[anest1s]

You guys aren't reading my post. I think you all must be skimming.

Re-read what I wrote.







If a player threw his dice at me, I'd kick his butt out of the game so fast that he'd know just how fast a standard action really is.

Now....go back and re-read my post....then tell me why you think you're getting different throws that what RAW allows.

Well, I wouldn't want to play anyway. Thats what trowing the dice means

You see, one PC falls into negatives. We don't know how badly he is hurt. There are only barbarians in the party. The best we can do is to try to patch him up. While whatever killed him is out there hitting the rest of us.
Probably there won't be any assist from other players (except if its out of combat), Then I am informed that its a DM roll. That we can't see. And we don't know if we failed. Even though its something like totally obvious- blood stopped flowing/blood keeps going out. And I have to reroll. For the next 5-9 turns. So. 2 out of 4 are out. And the other 2 have to fight something that was able to kill one PC. We are 1 person away from TPK.

At this point, it is obvious that the DM cares only about his fun. Even if he fudges the healing check for our benefit, even if a God comes down and saves us, the campaign is ruined, because I know the DM cares only about having himself fun, making rules that can only be used against the players.

Because even if I am the best healer in the world, I won't be able to know in game that I auto-success. And if I fail I just killed one fellow PC. And if I try too hard maybe I will have 2 fellow PCs dead.

All that when the RAW says that we should be able to live without a God saving us.

I would be amazed if there wasn't a dice-storm.

Edit:Also, funny thing. You want me to be there, but you don't really think that my character may be something for me

(Disclaimer- I don't throw objects to ppl, neither I care too much about dead PCs...but I feel I should warn you that someone maybe will, if you are a very good DM)

 

[Water Bob]

Then I am informed that its a DM roll. That we can't see. And we don't know if we failed. Even though its something like totally obvious- blood stopped flowing/blood keeps going out.

If its obvious, I'll describe it for the player.

And I have to reroll. For the next 5-9 turns.

The mechanics stay as RAW. I will roll them behind the screen. We roleplay the care of the downed PC.

You seem to have a real problem because I wouldn't allow you to meta-game.




This reminds me of something one of the 3E designers wrote in the Rules Compendium:

NEGATIVE ATTITUDE​

I have a house rule in my D&D campaign that says when a
character is dying, the player of that character isn’t allowed
to announce how close to death the character is. If the other
party members want to know how close the dying character is
to –10 hit points, one of them needs to move adjacent to the
dying character and make a DC 10 Heal check as a standard
action. As a DM, I get prickly when I hear a player brazenly
declare, “Hey guys, I’m down to –8 hit points, and I need someone
to stabilize me before I croak!” That, folks, is called ​

​

​

​

metagaming.​

It undermines the urgency and spoils the tension of
not knowing just how much time the character has before he
bites the big one. I’d rather see this knowledge revealed in an
in-game context.​

—Christopher Perkins, D&D Design Manager



I agree whole-heatedly with Christopher Perkins here.

 

[domino]

You guys aren't reading my post. I think you all must be skimming.

Re-read what I wrote.

Ok.

I would, of course, allow the aiding character an immediate Heal Check in an attempt to stop the hit point loss on the victim--this strictly for mechanical purposes. But, I'd make the character stay engaged in helping the downed victim no matter the outcome of the roll.

So this doesn't mean that stabilizing another player takes a second player out of the fight for the duration?

For that matter, what if someone wants to attack the aid giver? Would you give them their full AC, or would they be flatfooted, since they're busy putting pressure on a wound, tying a bandage, etc... Prone maybe, since they're dealing with someone who is likewise prone? What happens if they're forced away from their patient? Does he die or start losing HP again?