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Hey Old One: After Action Report?

Old One said:
Wulf,

Gratuitous bump, plus...

Any additional thoughts on our observations/feedback? I agree with your tack above that GT is not for "tanking" and combat-heavy dungeon crawls. It does, however, make for much more flexible, 3-D PCs...since you aren't limited to a big BAB and no skills ;)!

~ Oldie

You know, I have been making up PCs at various levels to get a grasp on GT and the way it works. I love it. But, I always seem to be short on skills. Not even skill points nessecarily. But every character I have made has had to use at least one feat for skill familiarity to get an additional core skill. For a game that should be more skills based that seems odd to me. But it could just be me or the way I build characters. I still love GT, I love the triple skill take (background, profession and choice), but I feel a skills crunch more than I ever did in Core. Even Smart starts you out with three extra Core skills, until you see that they're INT based, which is great for some characters. I suppose it would be easy enough to add a 4th free choice for a core skill. But don't take it the wrong way Wulf, I am from now on a loyal Grimy, but man I always hit a skills wall.

Fenris
 

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Hmmm...

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
Shhh...don't bother Wulf. He's supposed to be finishing 'Slavelords of Cydonia'.

BTW, I don't necessarily agree that it wouldn't work for a dungeon crawl (at least at low levels).

<SNIP>

With the 'Fewer Dead Heroes' option, a lot of the damage is going to be non-lethal, which heals pretty quick.

Hmmm....back to work. Or back to working on a potential Barsoom campaign, maybe....

Rodrigo,

You may be right here...I guess it is just moving out of the easy-magic insta-heal 3E mindset and towards a "GRIMer" type campaign. Even my relatively low-magic homebrew has few strictures on basic casting.

Even though Wulf may be hard at work on Slavelords, I would like to get his take on our "ability recovery time" discussions...

~ OO
 

Fenris said:
You know, I have been making up PCs at various levels to get a grasp on GT and the way it works. I love it. But, I always seem to be short on skills. Not even skill points nessecarily. But every character I have made has had to use at least one feat for skill familiarity to get an additional core skill. For a game that should be more skills based that seems odd to me. But it could just be me or the way I build characters. I still love GT, I love the triple skill take (background, profession and choice), but I feel a skills crunch more than I ever did in Core. Even Smart starts you out with three extra Core skills, until you see that they're INT based, which is great for some characters. I suppose it would be easy enough to add a 4th free choice for a core skill. But don't take it the wrong way Wulf, I am from now on a loyal Grimy, but man I always hit a skills wall.

Fenris

Fenris,

I guess I feel the exact opposite, but for me, it is more of being able to "custom build" a PC, so you can have a fighter with social skills, a caster with wilderness skills or a rogue with esoteric knowledge skills. No more boring fighters or barbarians with the exact same skill list.

One thing I have toyed around with is actually eschew the "Background Skill List" if the players are will to write up a reasonable background...that way they could simply choose 9-10 skills (with a requirement of one craft, one profession and one knowledge skill). As long as their background supported it, I would allow it as a DM.

~ Old One
 

Fenris said:
For a game that should be more skills based that seems odd to me. But it could just be me or the way I build characters. I still love GT, I love the triple skill take (background, profession and choice), but I feel a skills crunch more than I ever did in Core.

This, I submit, is more a failure of the 3.x skill system. The 3.x skill system almost forces you to abandon cross-class skills by penalizing you multiple times when you take them. The obvious penatlies are the doubled cost and halved max ranks, plus the paucity of skill points for some classes. More subtly, the system handicaps you because class skills advance so much faster, they force the DM to institute a 'DC creep' to keep things challenging. This makes cross-class skills even less attractive. Someone trying to keep up 'Spot' as a cross class skill, for example, is going to be so far behind the rogues and such that he may as well not even bother as it will only come into play if he is seperated from the party.

GT ameliorates this somewhat by handing out more skill points, but the penalties inherent in D20 remain.
 

Old One said:
Fenris,

I guess I feel the exact opposite, but for me, it is more of being able to "custom build" a PC, so you can have a fighter with social skills, a caster with wilderness skills or a rogue with esoteric knowledge skills. No more boring fighters or barbarians with the exact same skill list.

One thing I have toyed around with is actually eschew the "Background Skill List" if the players are will to write up a reasonable background...that way they could simply choose 9-10 skills (with a requirement of one craft, one profession and one knowledge skill). As long as their background supported it, I would allow it as a DM.

~ Old One

No, I agree. But look at trying to make a ranger type of character. You can get spot, survival, listen, kn(nature), climb, hide and move silent. But then if you want anything else (tumble, ride, use rope etc) you need to get a feat. The social fighter can be just as hamstrung. After bluff, diplomacy, sense motive, gather info, intimidate, perform. You're done. And you still need ride and jump and balance for those swashbuckling tricks.
I think RI may have it right, that it just an inherent flaw of the d20 system. Well not entirely, but I would like to be able to make characters more skill based. It was hard to do in Core, but it is hard here too. Any even if you allowed the characters to custom build a background for skills you hit the same wall. Perhaps I am too much of a generalist and need to specialize more.
But Rodrigo has it right, The DC creep is a part of this. Maybe Core skills should not have the half cap on it. Twice the points is still a heavy price. Maybe I need to make less skilled characters.

Fenris
 

OK, but...

Rodrigo and Fenris,

I understand the point(s) and although I am not trying to necessarily "defend" the 3.x (and by extension, GT) skill system, I think it also boils down to the "believability" factor in building PCs.

I think the class skill lists are designed to reflect things a PC is really good at (or have a natural apptitude for) and cross-class skills represent "dabbling". This discussion got me to thinking about how many things I am really good at...and if I am really honest, I would be hard-pressed to come up with 9-10 skills that I really excel in (or have enough natural apptitude to excel in if I apply myself).

Not that I want RL to intrude too heavily in my escapist fantasy hobby, but 3.x/GT is about hard choices...and a limited skill list reflects that. You can gain extra skills, but it does cost (as it should, IMO). However, since the gaining of feats is greatly accelerated in GT (not to mention talents), I think this is less of a problem in GT.

~ OO
 

I'm not really attacking the 3.x/GT skill system, just trying to point out why that system doesn't really work if you are looking for a 'skills-based' game rather than a 'class-based' one.

In any event, I'd just make skills cost 1pt per rank regardless, and keep the cap. This would let someone who specialized in a skill (ie took it as a class skill) count on being better than someone who didn't, but still give the amateur a chance to do reasonably well. Hopefully, players would start shifting points to the subsidiary skills rather than just maxing out class skills every level, and that would help the DM keep the 'DC creep' in check.
 

While I haven't picked up GT yet -- it sounds like something I'll like, but it's not what I need for the current campaign -- I wanted to chime in a bit about Skill Use in 3.x and d20 Modern and such.

I think that the "power creep" factor is certainly a point, but I also think that it's something that can often be worked out with good communication between players and GMs. This was something I brought up with my players at the start of a campaign awhile back. Here's a paraphrase of what I wrote:

"Okay, after looking around at the system, I've decided that for our campaign, an Average, Retryable, Non-Critical skill check will be about DC14+(your level). Since you guys are starting at 6th level, this means that a skill check I consider "not too hard" and "not too easy" will be DC 20. If it's critical to your advancement in the story and/or not retryable, it's probably going to be easier, or there will be factors that you can most likely use to get bonuses on the check.

So, generally speaking, think of yourselves as shooting for DC 20 on an average check. Here's what that means:

A character with max'd ranks in a class skill and an ability modifier of +2 will have a +11 on his check (9 ranks, +2 ability). This means that he succeeds on a 9 or higher -- he has a 60% chance of success. In this game, that means he's pretty good at that. This is something he is competent and noticeably adept at.

A character who adds additional stuff, like feats and/or class abilities, can get that up significantly higher. For example, a PC with three levels of Dedicated could take Skill Emphasis:Sense Motive and Empathy. Together, those add a +6 to the check, meaning that our PC now checks at +17 -- an 85% chance of success on the first attempt of an average, non-critical skill check. This person is a specialist, somebody who can get it done even if it's extremely difficult. This person is focused -- they're almost always going to succeed, but they're not as flexible.

A character who has put a few cross-class ranks into this skill, or taken a feat without taking ranks, might have a check of +6 total, including ability scores, feats, cross-class ranks, and so on. This means that he needs a 14 or higher to hit the average roll -- a 35% success rate on an average check. This character can do what's being asked of him, but it's going to take him a bit longer. He might take 12 or 18 seconds (2-3 rounds) instead of 6 seconds to get something done, but he still gets it done.

So, to sum up -- at your level:

Check at +0 or worse: You are noticeably bad at this, and probably shouldn't try to do it if other people are around who can do it better.

Check at +1 to +5: You probably have some training or natural skill in this area. Nobody is going to mistake you for an expert, and this is definitely not your strongest suit, but you can do it competently and won't need help to accomplish ordinary tasks.

Check at +6 to +10: You are recognizeably skilled at this type of thing, and can, with time, accomplish things that other folks would find completely impossible. If you have time to move carefully, you can do some truly impressive stuff, and it probably only takes you 2 or 3 tries on something that's meant to be an average challenge for the party.

Check at +11 to +15: This is an area of focused expertise for you. You can do challenging tasks on the first try, and you can do some very very difficult tasks without looking around for ways to make your tasks easier. If you have time to move slowly and carefully, you can pretty much assume that you're going to succeed at just about anything in this area -- and if this is a non-retryable skill, you have enough ability here to confidently use this even in situations when failure would be BAD.

Check at +16 or higher: You are one of the best people in the world at your level of experience with respect to this skill. The game should never require a skill check this high to proceed. Skill at this level means either that you want to succeed pretty much all the time on the first try, or that you want to be able to cut corners and succeed on stuff without finding other ways to get things done.

So, with that information in mind, build the characters you want."

That's about what I told them, anyway. I did receive a couple of complaints from people who thought that the skill system was lame, and that they should get more skills, so that they could have all of their skills max'd out instead of putting some ranks into everything they wanted to be good at -- resulting in them being good, but not superb, at a lot of things. When I talked about it with them, it kinda came out that they really wanted to be superb at a lot of things... which, they admitted, really meant that they wanted to be a higher-level character.

In my (limited) experience, problems with 3.x skills and skill checks usually boil down to:

-Players wanting their characters to be max'd out in too many areas, instead of good in many areas but not max'd out.
-GMs reinforcing this behavior by making skill check DCs so high that only characters with max'd out ranks have any chance to make them.
 

Old One invited me to post my idea here. I hadn't initially because I did want to hijack the thread about his After Action Report.

- Cross Posting Now -

I've been thinking about the way GT handles class skills for a few days now. It seems inappropriate that your class does not affect your Class Skill list. While it is my experience in RL that I have certain skills that have remained "class skills" my whole life, I have not always had the opportunity to improve them, but rather have been given better access to other skills at certain times in my life based on the career I was persuing.

(Real life examples always seem like poor choices to prove you ideas when talking about RPGs, but here I go anyway. YMMV)

For example: I picked up a computer back in 1980, from the library at the age of 10. Today I am a IT Engineer, with no formal school or training. In essence, my hobby has become my profession. Computer Use is always a class skill for me. Even though I spent 5 years away from the hobby, I was able to jump right back in with no problems.

While serving in the Marines, I had no opportunity to improve my Computer Use, however, I did have easy access to materials and training to improve my rifle skill. I found that becoming an expert marksman was relatively easy while I was in service, but I have not gotten better since then, even though I've been to a range or two in the past years.

I think the simplest solution for me, is to give 3 skills; based on your occupation; at first level, which will always remail class skills. When you gain a level, the rest of your class skills are whatever skills that happen to be modified by the attribute associated with the class you just took. Strong (STR), Fast (DEX), Smart (INT), etc. Strong and Tough heroes (STR & CON), are pooled together, and their skills are equally accessible by both classes.

Furthermore, I intend to drop the INT bonus to skill points. Your high INT already gives you a bonus to INT skills, and the Smart Hero already has the potential for really high ranks in cross-class skills.

Lastly, I will drop the cost of cross-class skills from 2 pts per rank to 1 pt per rank and I will limit a character's cross class spending to 1/2 the skill points per level. ie. Strong & Tough Heroes must spend at least 1 skill point on a STR or CON based skills, while Smart Heroes must spend at least 4 skill points on INT based skills.

Anybody see an issue that might crop up using this method?
 


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