Hey Rube! and other archaic knowledge

<derail>This is what I find sad. As a teacher, I often wonder, "What's so wrong with challenging folks?" That they might have to actually look something up or, gods forbid, learn something new?</derail>

I don't think this is a derail at all. In fact, I think it gets right to the heart of the matter.

I think it's a bad thing that an expansive vocabulary and challenging use of language is avoided. Having to look up a new word does more than simply teaching one a new word. A new word can be a window on to a different culture, a different time, a different language, or just a different way of thinking. All of those things cause the mind to learn, change and grow - all of which are good for us in so many ways - and bad for us in none.

It's win-win.

Writing to the lowest common denominator is bad for everyone. It ensures the lowest common denominator stays the lowest common denominator. With no chance or need for improvement - ever.

I agree with Flatus Maximus - it is sad.
 
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Again??? Were they EVER? :)

Sure. End of the 19th century, beginning of the 20th century up to the first world war, the childhood heroes would have been inventors, engineers, builders and so forth. Professional sports were just taking off, and cinema was still in its infancy. The geeks meanwhile were building skyscrapers, huge passenger liners, bridging chasms, building dams, building huge machines, power plants, etc. Little kids love that stuff, and society in general was fascinated by all this new stuff.

Other than geeks, the 'cool' in this era was largely owned by the heroic age explorers like Roald Amundsen and (in a slightly different form) Buffolo Bill. This is 'World's Fair' and 'National Geographic' era (not incidently chaired by Alexander Graham Bell).

I can't think of a single time in history where this has EVER been true - even prior to 1950 you'd find kids more likely to know Joe Dimaggio and Jackie Robinson than Albert Einstein or Robert Oppenheimer.

By 1950 the geeks had undermined themselves by creating a diseminatable visual arts culture, spawning the modern celebrity culture and creating 'fame' as we now it. Although there are great players before Babe Ruth, prior to the Babe Ruth era few people could follow the exploits of a great athelete. And, I think you underestimate the celebrity status of Albert Einstein.

This was a totally different time. As a semi-tangental example, this was a time when Army and Navy were college football superpowers because soldier was the 'sexy' status accruing profession of the day. Today, every schoolboy could name you ten QB's in the NFL, but almost none of them could name you 10 commanders in the field - former or at present. There is something very basic at work here. You could make the mistake of thinking that the problem here is money, but that actually reverses cause and effect. The money is with whatever it is with because that is the idolized, status accruing profession, socially exalted profession that gets you invited to parties - or to put it bluntly - what a man does if he wants to get laid (or at least keep that option open). If you change what is idolized, if you change the cultural interests, and if you change where the competition is, then the money follows it. Culture is everything.

In Ancient Rome kids were more likely to know Spartacus than Archimedes. ;)

I can't speak for that era. I don't honestly know who Roman children would have idolized beyond obvious figures like Julius and Augustus. Gladiators? Generals? Orators? Poets? (There really was an era when poets were treated like rock stars and lived like it, see for example Lord Byron.) Chariot Racers? Mystics? I don't know. Records from the era are so relatively scanty and framentary that I'm not sure anyone really knows, nor am I really sure that anyone at the time would have cared to record anything like that.

Augustine's Confessions indicate to me that things must not have changed to much, because his description of life in the street gangs of Carthage could almost be 20th century in some aspects. His boyhood idol was Cicero though, and I'm fairly sure we can't take a nerd like him (charismatic as he apparantly was) to be fully typical of who young Roman children.

It's an interesting topic, and I'd love to have an answer.

But I agree that it's more likely to be in the future than the past. Geek Chic has never been more prevalent than today -- one of CBS Network's top shows is Big Bang Theory, after all.

There is a possibility of the return of 'geek cool', but I don't think we are fully on that path yet.
 

Hmm, the first thing that came to mind when I saw the title of this thread was Rube Goldberg machines. And yeah, they certainly apply to classic D&D when ever the tinker gnomes are out and about.

Though I understand the meaning of "rube" as was commented on in the original post. I didn't pick that up from D&D, but some archaic and erudite words probably entered my vocabulary from the game somewhere, though I already had a pretty good vocabulary by the time I started playing.

Again??? Were they EVER? :)

The exact same thing came to my mind when I read this. The geniuses have never been widely famous or idealized. Einstein's a notable exception, and there a few others here and there, but they are by and far exceptions and not the rule.
 

Well, OD&D and 1st ed. AD&D stuff did serve to broaden my horizons. I know that the Deities & Demigods entries for Finnish Mythology and the Lankhmar Mythos kicked off my interest in both.

The "recommended reading" list got me to read Jack Vance's Dying Earth and the Elric stories, as well.

I'm of the Atari 2600/C-64 era myself, though having grown up around more older folks than peers of my age, I had a fair amount of exposure to terms & terminology used by my parents' & grandparents' generations early on in life. My vocabulary benefitted from it (though my social skills suffered). So terms like "dog-eared" and "rube" weren't so alien to me.

I also learned the seemingly "odd" pronunciation of some words due to this, as well: the "k" sound of the "ch" phoneme in Greek-originating words like "chimera" and "chaos", for example.

However, a lot of language elements, as well as cultural references, that I learned were introduced through D&D.
 

Ahh yes, I have memories of running off to the dictionary to look up all the words I didn't quite get on that random encounter table...

haughty courtesan indeed.
 




Sure. End of the 19th century, beginning of the 20th century ....

Bill Cody, Davy Crocket, gun-slingers from any number of dime store novels, baseball and college football players, traveling performers, the local cowboy, cop, or militia captain. Even George Washington and Honest Abe. And, most strangely to us, don't leave out clergy and preachers.

I doubt the "cult" of Thomas Edison then was realy any greater then Bill Gates or Steve Jobs today.
 

Really? People aren't familiar with the phrase dog-eared?

Gygax's vocabulary was nothing compared to Clark Ashton Smith's. Now there's a writer who used odd words all the freakin' time.

And I suspect the readership of Weird Tales in the twenties and thirties was mostly teenaged boys, too.
 

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