Hidden = Invis???

[Errant]

I'd say a hidden PC is visually undetectable, wouldn't you?

Absolutely not!

A hidden PC is visually undetectED.

Lets say the PC wins the Hide/Spot contest but fails the Move Silently/Listen check. If the guard (whatever) is prompted to investigate and take a good hard look at the PC's hiding spot, the PC is going to be detected.

Personally, OTOH, I give successfully hidden PCs the benefits of invisibility, but only as long as they remain hidden.

[Edited grammar]

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Errant, this is exactly how I adjudicate it as well. Being hidden is very similar to being under the effects of the spell invisibility, in that it provides the benefits of being invisible, but is broken the moment you do something which breaks your cover (i.e. attacking).

Unfortunately, this is a ruling, and the poster has asked for hard quotes. As he's already noted, I don't really think there are any that will help.

 

[Errant]

Ruling or Quote?

Good point Lord Pendragon, but it cuts both ways.

Those who're treating Hidden as equivelant to Invisible aren't relying on quotes but interpretations.

 

[dr_nukem]

Re: Ruling or Quote?

Those who're treating Hidden as equivelant to Invisible aren't relying on quotes but interpretations.

Yup...that's why I was after some "official" clarification. The rules around hiding are very vague at best. My group has hashed and rehashed hidding/sneak attack quite a bit. I don't even know if we came to a concensus or not...

My opinion is that hidding does grant similar effects as invisibility does. Song and Silence details how you can attack from hiding(both Melee and ranged) and receive a sneak attack bonus. I think hiding should grant you 100% concealment from those who failed the opposed roll. I also feel that the hidden character should get a +2 to their attack, reflecting how the opponent is unaware of the attack, as well as being denied their dex bonus. This is identical to how invisibility is handled.

My DM, on the other hand, feels that the defender is denied his dex bonus, but that the attacker does not get the +2 bonus. He is also skeptical about the 100% concealment...but I think he now agrees.

Thanks to all for the good discussion/posts on this vague subject.

 

[Voadam]

I don't have S&S, what does it say about attacking from hiding?

 

[Ristamar]

Funny how these questions keep coming back... I hope the Search function gets reenabled sometime in the near future.

Anyway, I'll repost the reply I received from the Sage a few months ago.

Dear Mr. Williams

Does a hidden character count as "invisible" with regards to the "Attacker Invisible" entry on table 8-8 of the PHB, thereby giving a +2 to attack and denying the target its dex bonus to AC?

Usually, yes.

If not, does the hidden character deny the target its dex bonus to AC implicitly, perhaps without the +2 modifier?

No Dex bonus for the defender.

If not, is a hidden character at least considered 100% concealed for defensive purposes?

Not seen=100% concealed, unless the attacker has blindsight.




Skip Williams
RPG R&D

 

[Taloras]

As for the Dexterity modifier to AC, heres what I see it as. If you sneak up on someone, they should be considered flat footed. That would man that you can sneak attack them for one, but im not sure about the hidden=invisi thing.