Hide and Mv Silently skills are no more!

[Nail]

IThis system encourages multiclass cherry-picking of stealth skills; it reduces cross-class skill division; it propagates Stealth to become standardised; and is forced between the Scylla of mismatched opposed skills and the Charybdis of clunk.

Excellent prose, Al! What a summary. Carry on!

Fluent rhetoric aside, I think you've set up a number of straw-man arguements here:

• Multi-class cherry picking: You assume too much about "most players". Multi-classing to get max ranks in a skill is....a poor decision, at best; that's shown throughout the ENBoards. The net result is not stellar; in part you've forgotten about how many skill points other classes get.
• reduces cross-class division: Paying for cross-class skills each level is not a munchkin's choice, I assure you. Do you do this often, for your PCs? Let's look at another very useful skill (with an armor penalty, like Sneak): Tumble. Do your non-Rogues have this skill maxed? How about other players in your group?
• propagates Stealth: See above.
• Mis-matched skills: Not a problem, as the d20 system already has examples of this. Check out the grapple mechanic.
• "Charybdis of Clunk": You should win the discussion, just for using this phrase. Well done! The "Clunk" of which you speak, however, has no teeth. It's a simple in-game question to determine which skill (Spot-visual, Sense-everything else) to use. It's not caused either confusion or slow-down.

Rather than upsetting the whole system, why not just HR the "rogue detectors", and, if you're hell-bent on it, add one skill point to the stealth classes. It solves all the postulated problems without unleashing the clear problems of rolling Hide and Move Silently together.

Al, your proposal is only marginally simplier than what we've done. Marginally, at best.

-"hell-bent" Nail, stuck in Scylla's craw

 

[Nail]

...of course Charybdis, being a whirlpool, never had any teeth to begin with.....

 

[DrSpunj]

I've played in two campaigns now where characters that are really good with one of those skills is not good with another.

These sound like fun characters but the same types of things can be said about other skills that aren't so finely divided. Take Diplomacy: How do make a character who has the King's ear but can't haggle better than a donkey? Or Ride: someone who was literally almost born on a horse saddle but doesn't know the first thing about riding a hippogriff?

The Skill system has some quirkiness to it; any system would. Some skills are grouped (Craft, Knowledge, Profession & Perform) while most are not, but the division many times seems a bit arbitrary to us. Overall we like how it works, but there are a few things we're testing with some tweaks. So far we're happy with the results (at least I am!).

Thanks.

DrSpunj

 

[Al]

Excellent prose, Al! What a summary. Carry on!

Multi-classing to get max ranks in a skill is....a poor decision, at best

Arguable. It is perfectly rational for a stealth-based fighter for take a level in ranger, and this is an added incentive. However, the other view is of course that characters who was multiclassed in any case have essentially gotten twice as many skill points with regard to stealth. For popular archetypes such as the rogue/wizard and the fighter/rogue this is a substantial boost, particularly in the latter case.

Paying for cross-class skills each level is not a munchkin's choice, I assure you

Under the new system, of course, the payment for cross-class skills would be equivalent to the payment for class skills under the current one, i.e. 2 skill points to advance Stealth per ranks (vis-a-vis paying 1 x 2 for Hide and Move Silently).

Look at it this way: currently, a person who wants to play the classic thief archetype needs to have:

Does this not have an internal contradiction with your earlier arguments? You successfully argued, and I indeed conceded this point, that the +1sp is a trivial difference in terms of creating 'super-rogues' who are talented in every sphere. The effective addition of +1sp merely enables them to take Escape Artist. You do later admit that "just a bit more wiggle-room" is the upshot- surely just awarding +1sp achieve this just as well, if there really is a problem (which, personally, I don't see).

We've essentially done that. There are really two House Rules here. The first is to combine Hide & Move Silently into Sneak (more on that below answering your post). The second is combining Listen, Scent, Blindsense & Tremorsense and any other non-visual sense into the Sense skill in such a way that any creature with at least one of those gets a chance to use the skill, while those with more than one are rewarded appropriately for having multiple senses to bring to bear on the opposed check (and none of them are now automatic within a certain distance).

The second part I see no problem with, and whilst I am not going to adopt it for my campaign, I would argue is co-equal with the RAW in terms of ease of use, balance and flavour. It's the first which I have the problem with: and note that most of the supposed problems with the RAW are solved by the latter.

That's 4 chances for you to get caught (as a very low roll on either of yours or a very high roll on either of theirs is usually enough to foil the attempt). And that's even taking into account the massive discrepancy in skill bonuses a dedicated stealth PC has over schmucks; dealing with someone even somewhat competent in Spot or Listen and even average rolls can lead to failure.

Ah, clear blue water . Fundamentally, I think that this evinces a different opinion on the likelihood of the success of stealth at the higher levels. The discrepancy between the stealth PC and the schmucks is, indeed, phenomenal, and by the mid-to-high levels the advantages over one with a cross-class skill are also discernible.

However, the arguments sound good on paper, but numerically speaking, a 10th level rogue with 22 Dex (16 base + 2 level + 4 item), maximum Hide and Move Silently ranks and +5 stealth items has a +24 to those skills, easily enough to beat schmucks 100% of the time under the RAW. Against cross-class skill buyer, with a +2 Wisdom modifier (reasonable- only clerics and possibly paladins are going to have a significantly higher modifier), with his total +8, the rogue's chances of victory are still huge: just over 97% . It is only against a dedicated 'detection' characters with max class skill ranks and 18 Wisdom (realistically, only a ranger) that the rogue is likely to be detected, and the rogue still has a 64.8% chance of victory. The stealth-based character is heavily favoured, particularly by mid-to-high levels when stealth-boosting items are common.

Under the revised system, the %s are the following: 100%, 96.25% (ironically, the +2 synergy bonus means that the detector actually gets a marginal advantage) and 74%. In real terms, therefore, the effect is insignificant. The change is therefore unnecessary.

Re: familiars and animal companions. Not only does Scent only work within 30', but only one character is warned. And in any case, it is better to fold Scent into a separate set of House Rules, without tinkering with Hide and Move Silently.

Detailed analysis of the numerical breakdown shows that, and I was marginally surprised with the results, the practical %s of detection remain roughly constant, though there is a slight advantage under this system against opponents with similar detection skills to your stealth skills. However, the major impact is halving the cost of stealth, and whilst this makes only a slight difference to the skill-point-heavy rogue, to purchasers of cross-class skills, particularly fighters and wizards with relatively few expendable skill points, it is hugely attractive - to the point where multiclassing becomes actively more attractive to get max class ranks. For already multiclassed characters, this is a phenomenal boon.

Essentially, the nub of this question is: is stealth too difficult under the current system? I'd say clearly not. The prevalence of stealth-boosting items and spells, the tendency to have a higher Dex than the detector's Wis and the notion that many opponents will be clearly inferior due to being bound with cross-class skills (which they may not even buy), means that stealth is already powerful enough under the RAW. The change is therefore unnecessary, although there is room for altering the mechanics of the "automatic detectors".

 

[Nail]

Fundamentally, I think that this evinces a different opinion on the likelihood of the success of stealth at the higher levels. The discrepancy between the stealth PC and the schmucks is, indeed, phenomenal, and by the mid-to-high levels the advantages over one with a cross-class skill are also discernible.

Excellent: statistics. Now we're getting somewhere.

The primary sticking point between us, if you'll allow me to condense things, is that combining 2 skills into one allows other classes to "cross-class" purchase it more cheaply...and that is a problem. Is that a fair assessment?

I disagree the above is a problem. There are many skills that are quite useful in the RAW -- Spot, Escape Artist, and Tumble, for example -- that are cross-class for classes that might really want them. Your "dexterity-based Ftr" for example, would really want that Tumble skill....especially given a Dex-based Ftr need for manueverability.

Yet skill points are limited, as you've admitted, and you'll have to make those choices. Taking max ranks in Sneak isn't a slam dunk, given those restrictions. A Rgr1/Ftr9, for instance, needs to spend most of his skill points (22 out of 34) to max out Sneak.....and what other skills could he get?

Meanwhile, many classes get either Spot, or Sense (RAW: Listen) or both. Many, many, *many* common PC foes get those skills. Having your cc-Skill taking Ftr with ranks in Sneak ain't gonna tip over that game-balance apple cart.

In fact, if you really want a Ftr or Wiz that can Sneak (and only do that one skill...), then more power to you. Sounds like an interesting character concept!

... numerically speaking, a 10th level rogue with 22 Dex (16 base + 2 level + 4 item), maximum Hide and Move Silently ranks and +5 stealth items has a +24 to those skills, easily enough to beat schmucks 100% of the time under the RAW.

Absolutely. No arguement here!

Against cross-class skill buyer [of Spot and Listen],.....the rogue's chances of victory are still huge: just over 97%.

Well now: it depends on the "schmuck", doesn't it? Check this out: 6 out of the 11 RAW base classes have Spot or Listen (or both!) as a class skill! (And many, even most monsters get these skills.) And concidering either Spot or Listen is the core "encounter distance" mechanic, everyone that can take those skills should!

In either case, I'd like to see how you calculated those probabilities, and what numbers you used. I'm assuming you had the "sneaker" roll two skill checks, and the "observer" roll two. It does surprise me that there is no significant difference.

.... although there is room for altering the mechanics of the "automatic detectors".

In that, we are in absolute agreement.

 

[jerichothebard]

Special: If you have the Stealthy feat, you get a +2 bonus on Sneak checks.

If you have the Alertness feat, you get a +2 bonus on Spot checks.

Both of these feats now suck. at least, they don't give as much of a bonus as a simple skill focus feat on their respective skills.

 

[jerichothebard]

#4) Spot and Sense should be combined as well.
In this, YMMV, I admit. (Tip of th' hat to Nifft.) I think that the "Sense" mechanic (pin-point location, but not negate concealment or cover) is different enough from Spot (pin-point location, can see and react to subject's actions) to be a separate skill.

You mean, like Move Silently and Hide are different actions? Frankly, these two things are really quite different in their application. Yes, they often go hand-in-hand, but the moves required to put them into practice are quite seperate.

Keep in mind that in our description of these tweaked skills, you either roll a Spot or a Sense check when someone is Sneaking up on you, not both.

In which case, it is effectively like you did combine them - since someone only ever has to make one roll with them, to have a (roughly) equal chance of detecting someone sneaking, there is no reason to ever buy the second. Esp. if your buddy picks up the other one.

 

[Ravenall Stormborn]

A truely Epic Rogue should be able to tiptoe past an Earth Elemental.

IMO, no he shouldn't. An earth elemental is earth. It's in tune with it. If your touching your touching the ground it should know.

Aren't their epic level feats that allow you to bypass blindsense and termorsense? If not, why not add them?

 

[Al]

The primary sticking point between us, if you'll allow me to condense things, is that combining 2 skills into one allows other classes to "cross-class" purchase it more cheaply...and that is a problem. Is that a fair assessment?

Yep.

I disagree the above is a problem. There are many skills that are quite useful in the RAW -- Spot, Escape Artist, and Tumble, for example -- that are cross-class for classes that might really want them. Your "dexterity-based Ftr" for example, would really want that Tumble skill....especially given a Dex-based Ftr need for manueverability.

I would disagree. In making Sneak, one effectively makes Hide and Move Silently class skills for purposes of buying ranks- i.e. one only has to spend 2 points to get stealth abilities up a rank, as opposed to 4 under the RAW. The 4 points currently makes it prohibitive to buy up at a realistically high level. At 2 points, however, it's certainly worthwhile.

Yet skill points are limited, as you've admitted, and you'll have to make those choices. Taking max ranks in Sneak isn't a slam dunk, given those restrictions. A Rgr1/Ftr9, for instance, needs to spend most of his skill points (22 out of 34) to max out Sneak.....and what other skills could he get?

Indeed. The question of "opportunity cost" always comes into play. However, the classes to which Sneak is likely to appeal already have pitiful class skill lists. The fighter class skill list is genereally regarded as one of the worst in the game: Hide and Move Silently are almost self-evidently superior to Ride (with the exception of special mounted PrC), Climb, Jump and Craft (weaponsmithing) in a standard game. Likewise with many of the "athletic" class skills. They simply tend to become obsolete by the mid-levels when mobility-based magic is commonplace. Simple Boots of Levitation remove the need for Climb, and, to a certain extent, Jump at a cost which is trivial at high levels. Druids and wizards suffer the opposite problem: they have a few good class skills, but their numbers of skill points far outstrips the useful class skills. Sneak would be a perfect accompaniment. At 4 points per rank, the cost is prohibitive. At 2, it's the equivalent of making Hide and Move Silently class skills.

The other concern, of course, is that of multiclass characters. It works both ways. Stealth-based classes can now divert far more resources into martial and other complementary classes without sacrificing their stealth. Ironically, not only does the change make it more attractive for a fighter to take levels in ranger, but also vice versa.

In either case, I'd like to see how you calculated those probabilities, and what numbers you used

It surprised me as well actually. The ramification is quite clear, and perhaps a bit disturbing: against dedicated skill users, cross-class opposed skills are effectively useless. Though, in fairness, I've tended to find this in my games as well. Fighter guards tend to be hopeless at detecting PC rogues, for example.

The numbers are:
Chance of being detected on any one opposed roll= (0.15 x 0.1 x 0.05)/20= 0.015, or 1.5%. The figures in brackets are derived from the assumption that the trained sneaker has +16 over the cross-class detector and investigates the permutations of what the sneaker is rolling versus the detector. If the sneaker rolls a 1, the detector has a 15% chance of detection (since the sneaker wins on a tied score). The chances to avoid detection are thus 0.985, which squared is 0.970225, or 97.0225%.

As an aside, I use the 20=30 and 1=-10 house rule. The numbers under this system are interesting: against the schmuck it's 95%, the cross-class detector 86% and the class one 59%. Thus, cross-class skills suddenly become much more useful, and both schmucks and class skill buyers are affected less.

 

[Ravenall Stormborn]

I'm not sure that this would yield the same result that you want, but maybe you could try a revamped Synergy system? Like for every 3 points you put in Hide or Move Silently, you get a +1 synergy bonus to the other.