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Hide in Plain Sight item?
- Thread starter Ambrus
- Start date
In the 'Tome of Magic', there's an item called 'Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis' on page 156.
It grants you the 'Dark Creature template' described in the same book on page 161 for up to 10 minutes per day.
The most interesting thing of the 'Dark Creature template' is that it grants you 'Hide in Plain Sight' (except in natural daylight, the daylight spell, etc.).
This item costs 10,800gp. A variant version that works continously is priced at 22,000gp.
It grants you the 'Dark Creature template' described in the same book on page 161 for up to 10 minutes per day.
The most interesting thing of the 'Dark Creature template' is that it grants you 'Hide in Plain Sight' (except in natural daylight, the daylight spell, etc.).
This item costs 10,800gp. A variant version that works continously is priced at 22,000gp.
Closest item I can think of is the Ring of Invisibility at 40K. HIPS is more valuable, though, because you don't always become visible with attacks (mostly spells), and its part of a move action to use. For those benefits, I'd give about a x5 multiplier, so 200k total.
OTOH, I use pre-MIC pricing and I'd never let a character get HIPS via anything other than a class ability, so my pricing is probably biased on the high side.
OTOH, I use pre-MIC pricing and I'd never let a character get HIPS via anything other than a class ability, so my pricing is probably biased on the high side.
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
No kidding! I wouldn't even pay 100k for HiPS. It's not the same as invis, you still need to jack up your hide modifier insanely high for it to reach such equivalencies. To the OP, I second the collar from ToM, it's probably the best way to get HiPS.
If you look up the Shadowcraft Mage handbook, it's cited as an otion to cheese the build further, by making you count as originating on the plane of shadow, which opens up fun options to boost shadow spells even more. Not important to your question, but useful to know.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=655556
Jack Simth
First Post
Let's see how close can we get with Core items, and how much does it cost...
Goggles of night: 12,000 gp (Darkvision)
Minor Ring of Cold Resistance: 12,000 gp (Resistance to cold 10)
Boots of Striding and Springing: 5,500 (+10 land speed; the Dark Creature template gives a boost to all movement modes, but the Boots also give +5 Jump)
Low-light vision: Not obtainable through Core items
Hide in Plain Sight: Not obtainable through Core items
Cloak of Elvenkind: 2,500 (+5 Hide; template gives +8)
Boots of Elvenkind: 2,500 (+5 Move Silently; template gives +6).
So with five different items (two of which are mutually exclusive), you can get a lesser version of the limitless-use collar for about half again the expense.
...
Who thought that item was reasonable? Seriously.... +1 LA, no use cap, for 22,000 gp, rather than actually putting you a level behind? Are there any actual downsides to it for, say, a Beguiler?
I should point out a common misconception about hide in plain sight. Even with a +1000 hide modifier, it still does not grant invisibility. You must always have partial cover or concealment to hide per the hide rules. i.e., you must always hide in or behind something. Normally you may not move to a hiding spot while being observed. So if I jump behind a bush in the middle of a battle, the monsters automatically spot me no matter how high my hide roll is. But with Hide in Plain Sight, you may jump behind a bush in the middle of a battle (or while otherwise being observed) and hide. Or you may jump into an area of shadowy illumination. Note that shadowy illumination also grants concealment. And that just about any substantial obstacle grants cover.
To make things even clearer, take a look at one of the most common sources of HiPS: the shadow dancer. A shadow dancer may hide when within 10' of a shadow, even while being observed. This is ambiguous so far: maybe you hide right where you stand, maybe you need to move into the shadow first. But check out what it says next: "You may not hide in your own shadow." It's beautifully worded to prevent confusion in such a way that the reason is self explanatory. How can you duck into your own shadow? And now the implication is that the shadowdancer moves into a shadow. Furthermore, the hide rules say that hiding typically takes no action because it is typically done as part of a move.
So I hope it's now clear that a shadow dancer can move into a shadow within 10 feet to hide, even while being observed. And that other sources of HiPS do likewise. And I hope that, even without hide in plain site, people who play rogues will start hiding behind things. Or at least in a dimly lit area.
Also note that in total cover/concealment you are hidden no matter what you roll for your hide check. i.e., you don't have to be stealthy to hide dead center of the opposite side of a large brick wall. Peeking around the corner (partial cover), is another matter. The rules for hiding in both partial and total cover/concealment should be common sense, but I think the d&d community has strayed here.
To make things even clearer, take a look at one of the most common sources of HiPS: the shadow dancer. A shadow dancer may hide when within 10' of a shadow, even while being observed. This is ambiguous so far: maybe you hide right where you stand, maybe you need to move into the shadow first. But check out what it says next: "You may not hide in your own shadow." It's beautifully worded to prevent confusion in such a way that the reason is self explanatory. How can you duck into your own shadow? And now the implication is that the shadowdancer moves into a shadow. Furthermore, the hide rules say that hiding typically takes no action because it is typically done as part of a move.
So I hope it's now clear that a shadow dancer can move into a shadow within 10 feet to hide, even while being observed. And that other sources of HiPS do likewise. And I hope that, even without hide in plain site, people who play rogues will start hiding behind things. Or at least in a dimly lit area.
Also note that in total cover/concealment you are hidden no matter what you roll for your hide check. i.e., you don't have to be stealthy to hide dead center of the opposite side of a large brick wall. Peeking around the corner (partial cover), is another matter. The rules for hiding in both partial and total cover/concealment should be common sense, but I think the d&d community has strayed here.
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StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
I appreciate how much work you put into backing up your argument, but there are several flaws here.
-Goggles of Darkvision are a ridiculously overpriced item. Seriously, you can (by the suggested DMG table for item creation) use a spell from spell compendium to get a limitless use activated darkvision much cheaper. And if using MIC guidelines for what things are "really" worth, the price drops more. Also, the Dark template's darkvision doesn't stack with racial darkvision far as I know, and I'd hope any sneaky character would already have such a key ability before he could drop 10-20k on one item.
-Lowlight vision: A first level spell, and IME hardly a necessary thing to have.
- You're saying the collar's good cause it's giving all these things in one slot. MIC says slots aren't as important, as long as you're tacking on common effects, including those skill bonuses. In fact, it could be argued that almost no character will ever need everything from that grab bag, so it should be cheaper bundled together.
I think the minute/day version may be ok, and the unlimited use should probably be worth +50% or even +100% the current value, but that's a far cry from the numbers other people are tossing out.
I think the issue partly depends on whether or not your group uses LA buyoff from UA. if so, that +1 LA is effectively only worth 300 xp, and it starts to look not so bad. And it's hardly the worst +1 LA template. Just be thankful it gives no stat bonuses *looks angrily at that stupid Lolth one that gives str and con +6*
To expand on my reasoning, I actually believe that HiPS is much better than Invisibility once you get to a high enough level (typically, when HiPS is available). Invisibiliy can be dispelled or otherwise thwarted by a wide range of spells. There is no magic bullet to see a creature using HiPS. HiPS's weakness, a high spot check, is also effective against Invisibility. Most importantly, HiPS can be improved as you go up in level, while Invis is always just Invis. And don't forget my earlier point that HiPS can be used as part of movement compared to Invisibility's standard action casting time.
I have played an assassin who based a good chunk of his character concept around HiPS. Yes, there are limitations, and yes, it does require a lot of judgement calls from the DM. But it is still an amazingly powerful ability, especially if you use good tactics. There is no spell or other ability that can match some of the things HiPS can do, and it remained useful throughout the entire lifespan of the character.
Reviewing the price of the Ring of Invisibility (I incorrectly remembered it as 40k instead of 20k) and thinking it through a bit more, I would probably drop the cost of a slotted HiPS item down to somewhere around 100k. As before, this price is for a non-MIC game with limited access to splat material.
Jack Simth
First Post
1) DMG table for item creation has a first step of "compare to existing items", not "look at the table". Plus, a Use Activated item of True Strike is the poster-child for why those tables aren't so grand (2,000 gp for +20 to all attacks, 4,000 gp if unslotted).
2) The Goggles of night don't stack with darkvision, either. I'm comparing what it does for a human, as a default, as the template the collar grants gives a particular set of stuff, and someone optimizing things will avoid overlapping abilities.
Also not included in my cost calculations. And no, it's not necessary, but it's one of the things that's granted, so it's something I check when contemplating balance of the item in question relative to core items.
A stealthy character will make fairly common use of basically everything except the cold resistance, or stuff they have already. And the cold resistance comes up if your DM is fond of direct-damage effects. Hence I include it.
Do note, with the items I listed, you're looking at about +50% for the no-duration-cap variant. Mind you, that doesn't cover either the Hide in Plain Sight or the Low-light vision, and uses lower skill points. Evasion, a 2nd level class feature, can be purchased as a ring for 25,000 gp. A Ranger's Hide in Plain sight is a 17th level ability, while a Shadowdancer gets it at 1st level... but the Shadowdancer requires a minimum of 7 character levels prior, so it's effectively an 8th level ability (comparing to Core, at least). If you follow the "standard" progression (level ^2 * some constant) for most items, using a 2nd level ability as a base (resulting in a "constant" cost of 25,000 gp /(2*2) = 6,250 gp), you get a value of Hide in Plain Sight of 400,000 gp. If you treat Hide in Plain Sight as being approximately equal in use to Evasion, then you're looking at that aspect alone being worth 25,000 gp - which is, in and of itself, more expensive than the uncapped collar.
Now, granted, there's a lot of internally imbalanced things in Core (Fighter-20 has significant difficulty keeping up with a Wizard-20 in terms of in-game usefulness, for instance), but balance is also a relative term. Relative to Core items, the no-cap version of that collar is significantly underpriced for what it does. By a lot.
... you missed a 0. 3,000 xp for a +1 LA buyoff.
Of course, the LA buyoff rules are badly worded. You're an Aasimar Sorcerer-2, who just hit enough XP to become an Aasimar Sorcerer-3 (6,000 xp), so you spend 3,000 xp to remove the level adjustment, leaving you at 3,000 xp... which, with the +0 LA race that you now are, is still enough to make you a Sorcerer-3 - so you level up anyway - at no noticeable cost, even in the short-term.
StreamOfTheSky
Adventurer
Not true, it takes a while to blow that kind of money on one item, I think most people would want the darkvision right away. Requiring a light source to scout in the dark is pretty self-defeating.
And yet, if you were looking to balance the item, I bet anyone looking at the collar wouldn't cry for a second if you were to remove the resistance benefit. Sure, it's nice to have. But it's packaged in, most stealthy types really won't care, especially given the likelihood of such characters to have high ref and touch AC plus evasion anyway. On a side note, why is that part of the Dark template? Seems kind of random to me.
Ok, if you were trying to prove a point that you should NEVER use the table to figure out item value, well done. I get it.
But it came out closer in time to MIC than the DMG, so I think it's fair to go by that book's assessment of what an item's worth more than the DMG. And really, part of the problem is the 3.5 DMG overreacted to wealth issues. For example, in 3.0, the goggles of darkvision were 6000 gp. They doubled this in the update. So I trust MIC more for comparison. And I think while the minutes/day version may be a little underpriced, it's the constant use version that's an absolute bargain. IT should probably be closer to 40,000 roughly, as I said before.
That was a typo, I meant 3000. And yeah, it's a great deal for +1 LA, to the point of very broken. I've come to decide I wouldn't allow it for templates*, since you can stick that onto anything, but I don't think it's so bad for races. I don't know about you, but LA buyoff games are the only ones I even see LA races, and even in those games, half or more of the players go human. I'm willing to offer a sweet deal in the name of diversity. This is going ver off-topic, though.
*But my point was the collar would be much less monstrous in a group that does allow LA buyoff for templates, so that point stands.
