Hide in Plain Sight / Spring Attack

[Thanee]

Why should Expeditious Retreat not double all respective numbers for hiding?

Sure, it does not change your base speed, but your normal speed now is twice your base speed, as that is what the spell does, double your speed. Whether this counts as an enhancement bonus or not is pretty irrelevant.

Bye
Thanee

 

[dr_nukem]

not again...

This one just keeps coming up.

Check the following links for previous discussions on HIPS, Hide, and Sneak Attack:

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10146
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9654
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9593
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7456

In summary:

HIPS is a SU ability, however it does NOT take a Standard Action to activate.
Hide is part of movement, thus is a MEA.
HIPS is part of movement, thus a MEA.

All of this is 100% subject to rule 0.

 

[Thanee]

Well, that so far does not cause any problems...

But does spring attacking and then hiding with HIPS while only moving half your speed incur the -20 hide penalty or not?

That's the question, and I think it does.

Bye
Thanee

 

[dr_nukem]

I'd say the real question is CAN you spring attack while HIPS? Sure, you can move your ranks in hide and sneak attack someone, but can you then move/hide away?

We've had this discussion in our group...and our DM is NOT happy...

I'd say, by the rules, you could do this.

As an example, the snipe attack mentioned in S&F gives a -20 to a hide check after making a ranged attack. By that logic, a melee attack would have the same penalty. Note that based on the snipe attack, you must be at least 10' away from your target.

Hide has penalties based on movement as well. So, if a normal human was 5' away from his target and he had at least 5 ranks in hide, he could move (using hide), attack (sneak), and then move 10' (hide at a -20) as part of a spring attack.

Our DM, however, has ruled that this is not possible. His logic is that in one round, the PC is using 2 skills, attacking, AND moving. To much as far as he is concerned.

It really boils down to how you rule on what type of an action Hide (or HIPS) is.

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

I would say that expeditious retrat doubles the distance you can move and still hide. The faster you are, the harder you are to see, and the faster you can get into cover.

 

[Ristamar]

But there has always been discrepancies like this... the buffing spells, no matter how long they last wont boost your spells per day. But an INT boosting magic item sure will.

Spells are a temporary boost, magic items and class skills are more permanent. So a 20th level Monk could move at 90ft. for only a -5... but at 180ft. it's -20.

Going by your previous logic, it could be argued that the monk could go only 25 ft. for no penalty, 50ft. for -5, or 180' at -20. Afterall, a monk's movement rate beyond level 9 is a supernatural ability.

 

[mikebr99]

Going by your previous logic, it could be argued that the monk could go only 25 ft. for -5, and a maximum of 50ft. for -20. Afterall, a monk's movement rate beyond level 9 is a supernatural ability.

Yeah... but it's a gradual increase in his speed over the 20 levels of his class. Not, one second you can move at 30ft... The next you can now move at 60ft. and still be a subtle as ever...

The Monk's supernatural speed is an innate part of him that he is totally in control of and has complete knowledge of how to use.

A spell that the Rogue gets to use once in a blue moon is going to allow him to move faster... but at the expense of subtly...

 

[Ristamar]

Yeah... but it's a gradual increase in his speed over the 20 levels of his class. Not, one second you can move at 30ft... The next you can now move at 60ft. and still be a subtle as ever...

The Monk's supernatural speed is an innate part of him that he is totally in control of and has complete knowledge of how to use.

A spell that the Rogue gets to use once in a blue moon is going to allow him to move faster... but at the expense of subtly...

Actually, I didn't word it quite how I wanted it (see previous, editted post).

Anyway, I disagree with the gradual vs. sudden speed increase argument. There's nothing in the rules that support that line of reasoning, indicating that large magical speed enhancements sudden make one relatively clumsy. As Thanee pointed out, had it said base speed rather than normal speed, well.... that'd be a different story.

 

[mikebr99]

Actually, I didn't word it quite how I wanted it (see previous, editted post).

Anyway, I disagree with the gradual vs. sudden speed increase argument. There's nothing in the rules that support that line of reasoning, indicating that large magical speed enhancements sudden make one relatively clumsy. As Thanee pointed out, had it said base speed rather than normal speed, well.... that'd be a different story.

I am basing my reasoning on the fact that buff spells give some benefits, but not all benefits for their buff... The WIS spell buff gives you higher will saves, more DC for your divine spells etc., but not any extra spells per day, no matter how many times you extend it.

But, being hopped up on speed (expeditious retreat) isn't going to give you supernatural use of the hide skill that should be reserved for a high level monk... But if the Rogue were to get Expeditious retreat cast on him permanently, then maybe I'd allow him to be able to use his skills at the increased and permanent speed. But not buffed for a couple of rounds...