Hide in Plain Sight Versus True Seeing

[Deset Gled]

The hider runs towards the TSer, tumbles behind him and hides in the TSer's shadow. Does TS still trump in this case?

The shadow-based HiPS is negated by anything that renders the shadows irrelevant, just like hiding in the shadows themselves would be.

Okay everyone, repeat after me: Hiding in Plain Sight is not Hiding in Shadows!

HiPS has nothing to do with hiding in a shadow. The requirement is merely that a shadow be near the hider. It doesn't matter where the shadow is or what it's created by, as long as the hider is close enough to it. It doesn't matter if someone can see through the shadow, because seeing through it does not negate its existence. A shadow is merely an area that is not as well lit as its surroundings. It is an effect of enviornment, and has nothing to do with an observer.

 

[Thanee]

The problem with HiPS is, and why it cannot be "just skill", that you can stand right in front of someone in a space with no shadows at all (or anything else to hide in) and still hide (without moving away!). No amount of skill can do that. And you can only hide, because you are concealing your position, not using the environment to hide in. That's what HiPS does IMHO, it changes the environment, draws the shadows to you, whatever. It's not really explained how it does that. But it must be the magical effect, that is hiding you (controlled by your will and your knowledge about how to best hide in the shadows), not your mundane ability.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Liquidsabre]

Wait a tic, this isn't a silly vote lol...

All in all I think the strongest case for TS over HiPS can be made from the TS spell text: "You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are."

No illusions, no darkness, the subject sees all things as they trully are. From this text we see how in many situations a subject with TS is likely to be adjudicated:

Rogue behind a barrel: cannot see

Rogue hidden in shadows: can see

Rogue hidden in fog: cannot see

Rogue behind illusory wall: can see

Ranger hidden behind trees: cannot see

Ranger hidden in the grass with camouflage: cannot see

Shadowdancer hidden in shadows: can see

Shadowdancer hidden in fog: cannot see

Shadowdancer standing in the open 10ft from shadows: can see

Strip away darkness and anything that is not natural and this is what a subject of True Seeing views. The subject sees things as "they actually are."

A shadowdancer in fog, would look like a shadowdancer in fog. A shadowdancer behind a barrel would look just like that, a shadowdancer behind a barrel. A shadow dancer in shadows looks like a shadowdancer crouched in the open. A shadowdancer crouched 10ft away from a shadow looks like a shadowdancer crouched 10ft away from a shadow.

If it weren't for HiPS being an (Su) ability and requiring shadows to operate I'd be very much obliged to have it work as the 17th level Ranger's (Ex) ability. A spell for example with the ability to see straight through all terrain features (possibly viewing only a flat featureless plain) would see right through a Ranger's HiPS ability (as the ranger is no longer "within" the natural terrain). Though I find it interesting that folk should have an ability available to what amounts to a 7th level Rogue work the same as or better than what is available to a 17th level Ranger.

 

[Thanee]

Though I find it interesting that folk should have an ability available to what amounts to a 7th level Rogue work the same as or better than what is available to a 17th level Ranger.

Much better, actually, as you can vanish from full view without any sort of limiting requirement (well, the shadow within 10 ft.), and it's useful in a lot more situations (shadows are pretty much everywhere).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I've already said my piece regarding TS vs. HiPS, but I wanted to respond to this:

Though I find it interesting that folk should have an ability available to what amounts to a 7th level Rogue work the same as or better than what is available to a 17th level Ranger.

It's not like there isn't precedent for it. Compare the spellcasting of a cleric and paladin sometime. Just because the Ranger gets the ability later in no way shape or form means the Ranger's ability should be significantly more powerful than the Shadowdancer's.

 

[TimSmith]

I've already said my piece regarding TS vs. HiPS, but I wanted to respond to this:It's not like there isn't precedent for it. Compare the spellcasting of a cleric and paladin sometime. Just because the Ranger gets the ability later in no way shape or form means the Ranger's ability should be significantly more powerful than the Shadowdancer's.

True- but a ranger is the "stealth specialist" in the wilderness vs the rogue's stealth speciality in urban/dungeons, so one might expect their skils to be on a par in this matter. The paladin is not merely a militant cleric, however, but more of a holy fighter, so we are in danger of comparing apples with oranges.

Back to the HIPS vs TS debate, I feel liquid sabre's examples make the point excellently. TS cannot see the ranger as it is not xray vision. However, shadows have no substance so the (su) ability of the dancer to HIPS is inevitably using some form of magic/illusion/misdirection/concealment to allow them to hide. I don't see how the intent can be anything but this, especially as the ability is specifically a supernatural and therefore magical one. (If this is where the disagreement is arising, then I would be interested to hear how those with differing views imagine the dancer making use of their ability-ie what does the dancer actually do in order to HIPS?)

Since TS sees things as they actually are, the dancer will not appear cloaked in shadow at all to the TS'er. However, the dancer's rogue and fighter comrades behind a desk still get their respective chances to use the hide skill because they are relying on a solid object to hide themselves which cannot be penetrated by TS. How well they do it depends on their hide skills...

 

[Lord Pendragon]

True- but a ranger is the "stealth specialist" in the wilderness vs the rogue's stealth speciality in urban/dungeons, so one might expect their skils to be on a par in this matter. The paladin is not merely a militant cleric, however, but more of a holy fighter, so we are in danger of comparing apples with oranges.

I think the example has merit (of course I would, since I posted it. ) Both cast spells, and one class gets those spells very late. It doesn't make them any more powerful. As a rule, a later ability does not need to be more powerful than an early one, and classes can get the same ability at unequal levels, without the power level being affected at all.

Back to the HIPS vs TS debate, I feel liquid sabre's examples make the point excellently. TS cannot see the ranger as it is not xray vision. However, shadows have no substance so the (su) ability of the dancer to HIPS is inevitably using some form of magic/illusion/misdirection/concealment to allow them to hide. I don't see how the intent can be anything but this,

My point, and thus my stance, is that True Seeing does not negate all magical concealment, nor all magical misdirection. It ignores the concealment granted by darkness or magical darkness. HiPS requires shadows be present, it does not depend on the concealment of those shadows to function. It's just as possible that the Shadowdancer shifts partially into the Plane of Shadow, just enough to have his visible form flicker out of view for a bit. Does True Seeing thwart this? Not at all.

You could also envision the Shadowdancer as drawing on the substance of the Plane of Shadow to create a small "smoke-bomb" of quasi-real Shadow stuff. Just as the Shadow Conjuration/Evocation spells can create objects and creatures that are 20% real, so too would this "shadow smoke" be 20% real. But that's enough to foil TS, which cannot penetrate fog-like barriers, including magical ones, so long as they are actually Conjurations, and not Illusions.

If the DM rules that HiPS is dependent on the shadows actually providing concealment (which would be a narrower view than the ability description itself supports, but not entirely unfounded and certainly fitting with the flavor of the class,) then yes, one could further rule that, because HiPS requires the concealment of the shadows, and that concealment is negated by True Seeing, then HiPS is trumped by TS.

I don't believe HiPS is dependent on the concealment of the shadows, and therefore it is not thwarted by True Seeing.

especially as the ability is specifically a supernatural and therefore magical one. (If this is where the disagreement is arising, then I would be interested to hear how those with differing views imagine the dancer making use of their ability-ie what does the dancer actually do in order to HIPS?)

I mentioned a possible description above, but note that I do not think the magical nature of HiPS (which is beyond dispute, really. Sure, the ability allows mundane hiding, but it's a magical ability that allows mundane hiding,) is itself enough to render it vulnerable to TS. TS does not foil any magical deception. It's very specific on those magical deceptions that are vulnerable to it.

 

[ARandomGod]

HiPS is also NOT mundane hiding and so doesn't fool True Seeing.

I'm voting on the side of HiPS. Most of my reasons are already presented, but I wanted to emphasize one.

HiPS isn't any form of hiding at all, it's instead an ability that allows normal hiding in abnormal conditions.

Once again, the ability doesn't hide you at all, therefore True Seeing won't affect it in any way.

 

[Lamoni]

I am still confused by the 'magical ability' arguments.

Some facts you should consider:

True Seeing overcomes BOTH normal darkness AND magical darkness.

If it overcomes it due to overcoming the darkness in the shadows, it does not matter that it is Su vs Ex.

True Seeing DOES NOT overcome all magical concealment. It overcomes all magical figments and glamers, but there is a lot of magic that can overcome true seeing. Just look through the conjuration school.

If you argue that it beats it due to HiPS being magical, then you are wrong again. If HiPS said that it created an illusion to grant concealment, you would be correct... but then it wouldn't require the use of the hide skill.

One more thing. HiPS does not state how it works. It is just as correct to interpret it as moving the shadows to grant the person concealment as it is to interpret it as the person moving onto the shadow plane. (Or any number of other interpretations). Since this is a Rules forum, then we should look at what HiPS actually states. It states that a hide attempt is granted if there are shadows nearby. It doesn't say that it grants it if the observer can see shadows nearby, only that they actually exist. Darkvision doesn't remove the shadows. True seeing doesn't remove the shadows. Other spells like daylight might. Since it is a supernatural ability, antimagic field would also prevent the person from using it. True seeing DOES NOT say that it trumps everything that antimagic field beats though.

Many people seem to think that since True Seeing is a high level spell that it is underpowered unless it is able to beat everything that is produced by lower level characters. Maybe it would make sense if it did grant that, but it isn't what the spell says.

 

[Liquidsabre]

It's just as possible that the Shadowdancer shifts partially into the Plane of Shadow, just enough to have his visible form flicker out of view for a bit. Does True Seeing thwart this? Not at all.

If a shadowdancer partially shifted into the Plane of Shadow I'd definately would go with this. True Seeing can only see into the Ethereal Plane not the Plane of Shadow. However this is not the case:

Manual of the planes p.64: "The shadowdancer prestige class described on Chapter 2 of the Dugeon Master's Guide uses shadows but does not enter the Plane of Shadow directly."

Here it even describes the Shadowdancer's ability to shadow jump as traveling through the Astral Plane not the Plane of Shadow. I think their tie to the Plane of Shadow is considerably less than may be believed by most.

Sure, the ability allows mundane hiding, but it's a magical ability that allows mundane hiding,) is itself enough to render it vulnerable to TS. TS does not foil any magical deception. It's very specific on those magical deceptions that are vulnerable to it.

Absolutely correct, by the text HiPS is best defined as a magical ability that allows mundane hiding. My original point being for those who argued for HiPS over TS was that if one considered it magical hiding the TS saw through it but if it remained mundane hiding then TS would be able to see the Shadowdancer as there is nothing there to conceal or cover them. They are, to a subject with TS, simply just standing there in the open with nothing to hide them, at all.

It is mundane hiding without the need for cover or concealment, out in the open, as the text clearly reads. Unfortunately, the ability isn't 'natural' (Ex)like a Ranger's Camouflage ability which conceals the ranger with colored paints, twigs, etc. The circumstances that allow a Shadowdancer to hide are magical in nature, remove the magic part of it and HiPS just doesn't work.

Essentially HiPS allows the Shadowdancer a way around natural cover or concealment, it provides them with a magical cover so-to-speak. Anything magical that obscures a character can be seen by a subject with TS.

*shrugs* It IS a tough call and clearly it could go either way with any group. This is one of the few rules spots that I'd have to say absolutely needs an FAQ question on to clarify it's use. Good discussion though guys, lot's of neat stuff. Personally I wish the shadowdancer had the flavor (and rules text) that Lord Pendragon would have added to it, the PrC would be much cooler IMHO.