Hide in Plain Sight Versus True Seeing

[Wrahn]

Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

versus

True Seeing
Divination

Level: Clr 5, Drd 7, Knowledge 5, Sor/Wiz 6

Components: V, S, M

Casting Time: 1 standard action

Range: Touch

Target: Creature touched

Duration: 1 min./level

Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)

Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet.

True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means. In addition, the spell effects cannot be further enhanced with known magic, so one cannot use true seeing through a crystal ball or in conjunction with clairaudience/clairvoyance.

Material Component: An ointment for the eyes that costs 250 gp and is made from mushroom powder, saffron, and fat.

Without trying to taint the convesation with my own point of view. Someone with True Seeing observing someone Hiding in Plain Sight in a situation where he otherwise could not hide. Is the person Hiding in Plain Sight visible?

 

[beeber]

if the hiding character blows his/her will save, then they are seen. if they make their will save, then they are still hidden.

 

[RangerWickett]

I've heard two camps in this discussion. One is Light-based, one is Sight-based.

The Light-based camp says that a shadow is something where light doesn't make a place illuminated.

The Sight-based camp says that a shadow is a place someone can't see because it's dark.

In the light camp, it doesn't matter whether you have low-light vision, darkvision, or normal vision; if something is casting a shadow, or is completely dark because of the absence of light, then it's fair game for the shadowdancer to hide.

In the sight camp, if the person try to look at the shadowdancer can see through an area clearly, then the shadows obviously don't affect them. Thus, a shadowdancer can't hide from a person with darkvision because to the person with darkvision there aren't any shadows.

I prefer the light camp. To me, whether the shadow is there is not dependent upon the viewer, and all Hide in Plain Sight says is that it only works where there are shadows. It doesn't matter if you can see through shadows, because it's not actually shadows that are hiding the shadowdancer. The shadowdancer is "hiding in plain sight." Thus, even if you ought to be able to see him, you can't, because he has the supernatural ability to hide when he shouldn't be able to.

Edit to add: Therefore, true seeing does not negate Hide in Plain Sight. You can still see the person with a successful Spot check, though.

 

[beeber]

what would teh dc for the spot check be?
i would think that's what the will save is for.

 

[Wrahn]

I've heard two camps in this discussion. One is Light-based, one is Sight-based.

The Light-based camp says that a shadow is something where light doesn't make a place illuminated.

The Sight-based camp says that a shadow is a place someone can't see because it's dark.

In the light camp, it doesn't matter whether you have low-light vision, darkvision, or normal vision; if something is casting a shadow, or is completely dark because of the absence of light, then it's fair game for the shadowdancer to hide.

In the sight camp, if the person try to look at the shadowdancer can see through an area clearly, then the shadows obviously don't affect them. Thus, a shadowdancer can't hide from a person with darkvision because to the person with darkvision there aren't any shadows.

I prefer the light camp. To me, whether the shadow is there is not dependent upon the viewer, and all Hide in Plain Sight says is that it only works where there are shadows. It doesn't matter if you can see through shadows, because it's not actually shadows that are hiding the shadowdancer. The shadowdancer is "hiding in plain sight." Thus, even if you ought to be able to see him, you can't, because he has the supernatural ability to hide when he shouldn't be able to.

Edit to add: Therefore, true seeing does not negate Hide in Plain Sight. You can still see the person with a successful Spot check, though.

Let me ask for some clarification, are you saying, because he is in shadow, he should be able to hide anyway?

Let me be more specific. Two people in the same room. It is spherical, perfectly round. It the center of the room is a thin pole (say a half an inch thick).

One person has True Seeing cast on them and is holding a very bright light. On the opposite side of the pole is a Shadowdancer.

Action starts and the shadowdancer, by the quality of the shadow cast by a quarter of an inch pole attempt to Hide in Plain Sight while being observed. Being able to see through shadows is irrelevant in this situation.

 

[Wrahn]

what would teh dc for the spot check be?
i would think that's what the will save is for.

True Seeing is a spell cast on a friendly target. It effects the viewer not the hidden target. Thus the hiding subject doesn't get a save.

 

[Humanophile]

Beeber. The will save is for the person recieving the True Seeing spell, not anyone else. (There might be situations when you wouldn't want that spell on you. Don't ask me what they'd be, but there's a reason for the "harmless" tag in saving throws.) Once that's done with, nobody has to roll any saves due to the spell ever again. (Unless True Seeing exposes the creature to an otherwise hidden gaze attack, which is completely irrelevant here.)

I'm tempted to say that True Seeing trumps HiPS. Why? HiPS is a Supernatural ability. TS makes a point of saying that it's ineffective against purely mundane disguises or hiding, but breaks through magical abilities. If you had an Ex ability that let you hide better, you could do it right in front of someone with True Seeing, but spells and supernatural abilities don't make the cut.

 

[beeber]

ah, now i understand.

i agree w/ humanophile. TS wins.

 

[RangerWickett]

Let me ask for some clarification, are you saying, because he is in shadow, he should be able to hide anyway?

Let me be more specific. Two people in the same room. It is spherical, perfectly round. It the center of the room is a thin pole (say a half an inch thick).

One person has True Seeing cast on them and is holding a very bright light. On the opposite side of the pole is a Shadowdancer.

Action starts and the shadowdancer, by the quality of the shadow cast by a quarter of an inch pole attempt to Hide in Plain Sight while being observed. Being able to see through shadows is irrelevant in this situation.

Well, this is an example where I'd expect the game master to say the shadow is too insignificant for the ability to apply. Otherwise you could always use hide in plain sight, because there will always be some measure of matter casting some miniscule amount of shadow.

Now, before the mage with true seeing enters the room, the room is already dark, so the shadowdancer can hide, but once he comes into the room, the light source makes it not dark anymore, so the shadowdancer can't use Hide in Plain Sight.

My personal stance on what constitutes a shadow for the purpose of hide in plain sight is, "Any area at least of at least one roughly 5-ft. space that is dark enough that a normal human would have difficulty seeing in it."



This may sound slightly illogical, but let me explain why I believe True Seeing cannot trump Hide in Plain Sight. Hide in Plain Sight does not conceal the creature. What it does is let the creature break the rules of reality. Normally you have to have something to provide cover or concealment for you in order to hide. With Hide in Plain Sight, you don't need any cover or concealment as long as there is a (sufficient amount of) shadow within 10 feet of you.

Basically, Hide in Plain Sight is not something that is hiding you. Hide in Plain Sight is something that is letting you hide. Odd distinction, I know, but I feel True Seeing lets you penetrate illusions and such, but HiPS isn't an illusion. The person actually is hiding. He's just doing it in a way that is normally impossible.

I did allow a spell in my game, Illuminate, 5th level, which eliminated all shadows in a 100-ft. radius. It made everything look white-washed, but it completely negated HiPS.

 

[Sejs]

I'd say True Seeing wins this one. HiPS is a supernatural effect that conceals you, True Seeing lets you see thru magical effects that (amongst other things) conceal you. HiPS trumps darkvision - just because you can see thru the shadows doesn't mean they're not there; however True Seeing not only lets you see thru darkness but also sees thru all forms of magical tomfoolery. It's that second bit that would give a HiPS user problems.

If where you were HiPSing from also gave you cover/concealment (like say behind a desk, or a tapestry) you'd still be hidden. If you're just standing out in the open and relying on only HiPS to hide you, True Seeing would pierce right thru it.

For these kind of situations, it's important to remember that hiding actually lets you move to cover or concealment if it's in a range that's limited by your skill level. What it comes down to, is that against True Seeing, a lazy HiPSer will get found out, whereas one who still makes a point to get behind something should be okay.