Hide in Plain Sight

[Markn]

If HiPS is combined with Spring Attack, I would prolly allow it, but add the Sniping -20 modifier. No it's not a ranged attack, but that seems to be fair- it's possible to pull the trick off, but the HiPS dude must be REALLY good at hiding!

Actually, I guess that would be better justified by calling it a -20 for a "Nearly Impossible" task.

Actually, under the hiding skill, if you attack while trying to stay hidden there is a -20 to your hide check.

 

[boredgremlin]

If the hiding character is stupid enough to stand in one spot you could swing like crazy and possibly hit (50% miss chance) and if he isn't stupid and moves you have to guess which way to move away that takes you out of range.

If you move your probably not in his shadow anymore. Shadows cast by people arent that big. So you still reapear.

A character using HiPS isn't hiding in the dark.
He doesn't have to be in the shadow.
If the ability had included your descriptive text it might work like that but it doesn't.
The ability allows the character to hide without actually having concealment or cover.
The presence of shadow is merely the trigger.

Non-personal Shadow Present w/in 10ft
Yes - Can use HiPS
No - Can't use HiPS

Whether or not someone else can see through the shadow does nothing to this ability.

The DM and players should sit down and agree on how much shadow is needed for shadow based HiPS ability.

How can people seeing in the shadow not matter? Using common sense explain that one. Its not a magical ability. Its not invisibility, Its not even a shapechanging spell to make you look like a shadow. So how exactly does it work in your opinion?

 

[Jack Simth]

How can people seeing in the shadow not matter? Using common sense explain that one. Its not a magical ability. Its not invisibility, Its not even a shapechanging spell to make you look like a shadow. So how exactly does it work in your opinion?

Not sure about other classes, but the Shadowdancer's (3.5 SRD, at least) Hide In Plain Sight ability is tagged as (Su) - and thus it IS magical.

Mind you - their may be some problems with the wording of the ability leading to oddities (like hiding using someone's shadow....)

 

[FireLance]

Okay, lots of confusion in this thread, as if the issue of Hide in Plain Sight wasn't already confusing enough.

There are two "types" of Hide in Plain Sight. The Ranger's Hide in Plain Sight is an Extraordinary (non-magical) ability:

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): While in any sort of natural terrain, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed.

Note that the description of this ability only states that he can hide while being observed. It doesn't negate the other requirements of being able to hide, e.g. you must have cover or concealment.

The Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight is a Supernatural (magical) ability:

Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

The first line of the ability description is similar to that of the ranger's, except that it is not limited to natural terrain only. In any kind of terrain, a shadowdancer can hide while being observed.

The second line of the ability description goes one step further. As long as she is within 10 feet of some kind of shadow (not her own) a shadowdancer can even hide without the need for cover or concealment. A common misperception is that the shadowdancer must be hiding in a shadow, or somehow causes a shadow within 10 feet to expand so that she can hide in it. Neither is implied by the ability.

However, the term "some kind of shadow" gives enough trouble. Barring extreme circumstances such as a room with a light source and perfectly smooth floors and ceilings, there is bound to be "some kind of shadow" within 10 feet of a shadowdancer, or she can easily create one by dropping a small object such as a pebble or a caltrop. This effectively means that a shadowdancer can hide anywhere. Some DMs don't like the ability to work that way, and rule that there must be a shadow large enough for the shadowdancer to hide in (although she does not necessarily have to hide in the shadow) - as a rough rule of thumb, there must be a square occupied by a creature or object of the same size or larger than the shadowdancer for her to use this ability.

As for the interaction of the shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight and true seeing, the spell description states:

You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet.
True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means. In addition, the spell effects cannot be further enhanced with known magic, so one cannot use true seeing through a crystal ball or in conjunction with clairaudience/clairvoyance.

Essentially, those who believe that true seeing is foiled by Hide in Plain Sight argue that the shadowdancer is "simply hiding", as per the second paragraph of the spell description, and that the spell description does not specifically state that it foils Hide in Plain Sight.

Those who believe that true seeing foils Hide in Plain Sight argue that a Shadowdancer is "simply hiding" only if she hides behind normal cover or concealment. However, if she does not actually have anything to hide behind, she is using her supernatural ability to Hide in Plain Sight, and while the spell description does not specifically state that it foils Hide in Plain Sight, it seems to defeat magical forms of concealment (e.g. "secret doors hidden by magic") but does not see through non-magical forms of concealment (e.g. "secret doors hidden by mundane means"), except darkness. Since hiding without anything to hide behind is a magical ability, true seeing should foil it. However, it would give no additional advantage against a shadowdancer "simply hiding" behind normal cover or concealment (except darkness).

 

[Thanee]

Thanee

You have a nice knack for avoiding the tough questions...

I'm not sure what you mean there...

Do you mean the required size of the shadow? Or something else?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Markn]

I'm not sure what you mean there...

Do you mean the required size of the shadow? Or something else?

Bye
Thanee

Ya, I was specifically referring to the shadow size...So tell me, does size matter?

 

[Markn]

OK Firelance,

I can see both sides of the true seeing argument. I guess it comes down to how you view the supernatural ability then? What is your definition for Supernatural abilities? Like many others I can just read what it says in the PHB but I would like you (or anyone else) to tell me what exactly that means. Perhaps by defining supernatural it will become more obvious whether or not it should foil True Seeing.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

Did everyone know that when nighttime comes around, that that’s the earth casting its own shadow. Just thought I would make things more complicated

come on and let the ranger hide in other peoples shadow,... its cool.

 

[FireLance]

OK Firelance,

I can see both sides of the true seeing argument. I guess it comes down to how you view the supernatural ability then? What is your definition for Supernatural abilities? Like many others I can just read what it says in the PHB but I would like you (or anyone else) to tell me what exactly that means. Perhaps by defining supernatural it will become more obvious whether or not it should foil True Seeing.

The PH glossary defines a supernatural ability as "a magical power that produces a particular effect, as opposed to a natural, extraordinary or spell-like ability", and a spell-like ability as "a special ability with effects that resemble those of a spell." Thus, my definition of a supernatural ability is a magical ability that is not a spell or a spell-like ability.

I basically ask myself two questions. First, is it a magical ability, i.e. does it stop functioning in an area where magic is supressed or negated? If no, it is either extraordinary or natural. If yes, it is supernatural or spell-like (or a spell). Pinning down the difference between supernatural and spell-like abilities and spells is tricker, but generally, if it cannot be disrupted in combat, is not subject to spell resistance, and is not subject to dispel magic, it is a supernatural ability. Otherwise, it is a spell-like ability or a spell.

Okay, I just realized the above is a very rules-based definition of a supernatural ability, and it may not be what you are looking for. If I had to define a supernatural ability independent of the rules, I would say that it is a magical ability that requires little or no concentration to activate. In most cases, it is because the ability is continuous, e.g. a basilisk's petrifying gaze, or a monk's ki strike, or because the action required to activate it is simple, e.g. breathing for a dragon's breath weapon, or striking an enemy for a paladin's smite evil.

 

[Nail]

I can see both sides of the true seeing argument.

Cool. (FireLance did a great job summarizing! Hire that man!) And I hope you've spotted the problem with interpreting "some sort of shadow" as either "darkness" or "shadowy illumination". Remember: HiPS does NOT care how an observer uses his eyes to see.

"Some sort of shadow" doesn't provide concealment; it merely allows the ability to function. Make up whatever flavorful description you like to account for that.

As for how large the shadow has to be to qualify: no RAW, so it's up to the DM. To be honest, there's little problem allowing most shadows to qualify. Not only does this speed the game up immensely (one poster a while ago posited that you had to calculate all of the illumination intensities and angles!), but it doesn't really throw off game-balance.....so long as you apply the Hide rules correctly.

I guess it comes down to how you view the supernatural ability then? What is your definition for Supernatural abilities? Like many others I can just read what it says in the PHB but I would like you (or anyone else) to tell me what exactly that means. Perhaps by defining supernatural it will become more obvious whether or not it should foil True Seeing.

A supernatural powers are magical - no doubt about it. But True Seeing does not work against any-and-all magical effects. The spell gives a list - a very broad list, BTW - of what it's effective against. Hiding, even magically enhanced hiding, is not on that list.

Moreover, even if you (try in vain) to house rule this so that "In My Campaign!" True Seeing works on the Shadowdancer's HiPS: the ranger HiPS is (Ex).........therefore non-magical...........therefore........