Hide in Plain Sight?

[mvincent]

"I get a full round of sneak attacks, then hide in plain sight (as a free action)!"

Note that:
1) The Shadowdancer needs to be near shadows to do this (and if this is from shadowy illumination, that could make sneak attacking difficult)
2) Only the first attack could be a sneak attack, since the Shadowdancer is no longer hidden after the first attack.
3) Hiding involves at least a move action (i.e. from the RotG: "you hide as a move action or as part of a move action"), so this could not be combined with a full attack.

 

[mvincent]

I disagree. Both the Ranger and the Shadowdancer use the same important language "can use the Hide skill even while being observed." You can observe someone in the dark using darkvision, but they can still hide from you even while being observed with your darkvision. Much like someone with normal vision can observer you in light, but you can hide from them even in light using this ability.

I agree. Of course, in complete darkness the shadow dancer wouldn't be able to use HIPS vs. darkvision (i.e. no shadows).

 

[Arkhandus]

Hiding does not require movement. It's USUALLY combined with movement, but it doesn't require movement (and Rules Compendium clarifies this, stating that all you need is cover or concealment). You can hide in place as a move action, or you can combine it with another move action. Sort of like the ability to draw a weapon as a move action, or you can combine drawing a weapon with another move action (if you have a +1 BAB). FAQ agrees btw, stating "Hide in plain sight, for example, works just like any other use of the Hide skill, so you use it as a move action or as part of a move action."

The latter point is exactly what I said, though. You don't need to expend a move action to activate the Hide skill, you just use the Hide skill automatically as part of movement whenever it's viable (i.e. you have cover available).

But surely you can't just stand stock-still and disappear, 'hiding' without budging at all. You have to at least duck behind something or whatever. Which will usually be a move action (of course, if there's some low cover, you could probably just drop to the ground as a free action instead, and hide then).

 

[mvincent]

surely you can't just stand stock-still and disappear, 'hiding' without budging at all.

You effectively can with HIPS (even though it must be "a move action or as part of a move action"), as you technically do not have to move when using a move action.

 

[UltimaGabe]

Also, will Darkvision enable someone to see someone who is using the HiPS ability to Hide without any cover or concealment? I can't find an official ruling one way or the other.

Note that HiPS doesn't require you to be in the dark, or even be obscured by darkness at all. All it requires is for you to be within 10 feet of a shadow. Therefore, it's reasonable to assume that Darkvision would do nothing, since there's no mention of being in the dark, and Darkvision doesn't negate the presence of shadows. Why would Darkvision help you see the guy standing next to a tree in broad daylight when Darkvision normally wouldn't even be necessary to see in such a situation?

 

[Mistwell]

I agree. Of course, in complete darkness the shadow dancer wouldn't be able to use HIPS vs. darkvision (i.e. no shadows).

Technically true, though silly. I suppose the shadowdancer could just make sure their weapon glows, thus making sure there will be shadowy illumination somewhere within range.

 

[Mistwell]

The latter point is exactly what I said, though. You don't need to expend a move action to activate the Hide skill, you just use the Hide skill automatically as part of movement whenever it's viable (i.e. you have cover available).

But surely you can't just stand stock-still and disappear, 'hiding' without budging at all. You have to at least duck behind something or whatever. Which will usually be a move action (of course, if there's some low cover, you could probably just drop to the ground as a free action instead, and hide then).

Well I think we are just getting into semantics here but we essentially agree. You need a move action to use hide, whether it is actual movement or just a move action itself. You can describe the move action (without moving from the square you are in) as "I move around to adjust my body to blend with the shadows in the spot I am in" or whatever.

 

[mvincent]

Technically true, though silly. I suppose the shadowdancer could just make sure their weapon glows, thus making sure there will be shadowy illumination somewhere within range.

Well, if your weapon glows then the closest area of shadowy illlumination would be 20' away

 

[Werebat]

I disagree. Both the Ranger and the Shadowdancer use the same important language "can use the Hide skill even while being observed." You can observe someone in the dark using darkvision, but they can still hide from you even while being observed with your darkvision. Much like someone with normal vision can observer you in light, but you can hide from them even in light using this ability.

I respect your opinion, but I am curious -- do you also believe that HiPS allows one to hide from an opponent with blindsight?

If not, what is your rules rationale? I admit I am "cheating" a bit here by using my own rewriting of the text for the effects of Darkvision on hiding, but as I say I think it is a fair and needed rewrite (the RAW lead to too many goofy situations).

To recap -- assuming that you agree with my rewrite of the last sentence of the "Vision and Light" section of PHB 165, how can you rationalize allowing HiPS to trump Darkvision and not Blindsight as well?

- Ron ^*^

 

[Werebat]

Note that HiPS doesn't require you to be in the dark, or even be obscured by darkness at all. All it requires is for you to be within 10 feet of a shadow. Therefore, it's reasonable to assume that Darkvision would do nothing, since there's no mention of being in the dark, and Darkvision doesn't negate the presence of shadows. Why would Darkvision help you see the guy standing next to a tree in broad daylight when Darkvision normally wouldn't even be necessary to see in such a situation?

Darkvision doesn't negate the presence of shadows, but it certainly allows you to SEE in them. Note that the shadowdancer's HiPS ability states that he cannot hide *in* his own shadow. This strongly implies that he is hiding *in* the available shadows when he uses HiPS -- otherwise it is merely an irrelevant comment.

- Ron ^*^