Hide in Plain Sight?

[Kmart Kommando]

Darkvision doesn't negate the presence of shadows, but it certainly allows you to SEE in them. Note that the shadowdancer's HiPS ability states that he cannot hide *in* his own shadow. This strongly implies that he is hiding *in* the available shadows when he uses HiPS -- otherwise it is merely an irrelevant comment.

- Ron ^*^

It also says he can hide 'within 10ft of a shadow' strongly implying that he doesn't even need to be in a shadow, merely near one that isn't his.

 

[Mistwell]

Well, if your weapon glows then the closest area of shadowy illlumination would be 20' away

Fine. Crystal of Illumination, Least. Page 64 of the Magic Item Compendium. Cost: 100gp. The weapon sheds bright illumination in 5', and shadowy illumination for 5 feet beyond that. Good enough?

 

[Mistwell]

I respect your opinion, but I am curious -- do you also believe that HiPS allows one to hide from an opponent with blindsight?

If not, what is your rules rationale? I admit I am "cheating" a bit here by using my own rewriting of the text for the effects of Darkvision on hiding, but as I say I think it is a fair and needed rewrite (the RAW lead to too many goofy situations).

To recap -- assuming that you agree with my rewrite of the last sentence of the "Vision and Light" section of PHB 165, how can you rationalize allowing HiPS to trump Darkvision and not Blindsight as well?

- Ron ^*^

In my opinion the effect of that kind of Hide in Plain Sight allows you to essentially "thicken" shadows to become impenetrable to vision (whether normal vision or darkvision). However, blindsight doesn't use vision to detect something.

To put it in the terms used by the Hide in Plain Sight ability, vision = observation, but blindsight /= observation, just "detection". For a real world example of the difference, if I touch a teapot and it is very hot to the touch, or if I hear the teapot whistling, I have detected that the water inside is boiling. But I have not actually observed it boiling, since observation would come with me opening the lid and seeing it bubbling.

 

[Werebat]

In my opinion the effect of that kind of Hide in Plain Sight allows you to essentially "thicken" shadows to become impenetrable to vision (whether normal vision or darkvision). However, blindsight doesn't use vision to detect something.

To put it in the terms used by the Hide in Plain Sight ability, vision = observation, but blindsight /= observation, just "detection". For a real world example of the difference, if I touch a teapot and it is very hot to the touch, or if I hear the teapot whistling, I have detected that the water inside is boiling. But I have not actually observed it boiling, since observation would come with me opening the lid and seeing it bubbling.

I would say that touching and hearing the teapot count as "observing" it -- they would in most science labs I have participated in. But let's not quibble over semantics.

I would also change my wording of the effects of darkvision on hiding, as they way I put it would allow someone with darkvision to automatically spot a ranger using his HiPS ability in the forest, or a person hiding 5' away in an obscuring mist, which I do not think darkvision is meant to do.

Meh. With shadowdancer's HiPS allowing him to at best sneak attack once per round and get a hide attempt at -20 on the die roll, the ability looks far less "uber" than it did back when that one player was abusing it. In fact I imaging the one player I have who wants to go shadowdancer will probably change his plans as soon as he learns the truth of what it really lets you do, even without allowing darkvision to see through the ability.

So... case closed, for my purposes.

- Ron ^*^

 

[Mistwell]

Interesting that the Dark Template from Tome of Magic grants a slightly different kind of Hide in Plain Sight. That text is "(Ex): Use the Hide skill even while being observed (except in natural daylight, the area of a daylight spell, or similar effect).

No "shadows" requirement.

 

[moritheil]

Interesting that the Dark Template from Tome of Magic grants a slightly different kind of Hide in Plain Sight. That text is "(Ex): Use the Hide skill even while being observed (except in natural daylight, the area of a daylight spell, or similar effect).

No "shadows" requirement.

Yeah, it's quite nice.

Darkvision doesn't negate the presence of shadows, but it certainly allows you to SEE in them. Note that the shadowdancer's HiPS ability states that he cannot hide *in* his own shadow. This strongly implies that he is hiding *in* the available shadows when he uses HiPS -- otherwise it is merely an irrelevant comment.

- Ron ^*^

This boils down to whether you think RAW or "common sense" should be supreme (and whether or not you think your real-world common sense ought to apply to a world where reality is continually being rewritten.)

 

[Griego]

Shadowdancer HiPS is a supernatural ability, that is, magical. So, much like the Darkness spell, which provides concealment even vs. creatures with Darkvision, I'd lean toward ruling it would still work.

 

[werk]

I agree. Of course, in complete darkness the shadow dancer wouldn't be able to use HIPS vs. darkvision (i.e. no shadows).

Darkness is shadow.

 

[mvincent]

Darkness is shadow.

I was actually being facetious, but semantically: darkness is the absence of light, while shadow implies the presence of light. From the dictionary:
"a dark figure or image cast on the ground or some surface by a body intercepting light."

... so a small object sitting in the shadow of a large object would not have a shadow of it's own. So while the planet might have a shadow, unlit areas deep underground are merely in darkness.

 

[moritheil]

It may bear repeating:

This boils down to whether you think RAW or "common sense" should be supreme