Hide Skill and Hide in Plain Sight

[MoonZar]

Yeah, his Sleight of Hand is impressive. My thought was that since the smoke is giving concealment (and a miss chance) than he can hide in it.

My problem comes in when he tries to do this in the future... he has to have something to hide behind regardless. Do you think he can hide behind his victim? He's small, and tends to reduce himself sometimes... This reduces the damage he can deliver, but do you think he can still somehow sneak up, get behind a target and remain hidden, in his target's shadow???

High level is giving me a headache.

Oh, I'd let a guy tumble while flying... why not? No better place to tumble in fact. There's no ground to contend with, and Tumble is just a nice way of saying twisting/rolling/turning/leaping around your opponent.

Shadows are hard to judge...

Aluvial

The PC chose this class to do this kind of stuff. I think the solution for you is not to find rules that would diminish the class.

Instead, i would make my npc use continual light and reduce greatly the area of the shadowdancer to hide. Also i think that a character of level 19 would have a reputation and some people will be aware of him and what he do..

Also he could meet someone who have true seing, this should allow him to have a great bonus to see the shadowdancer according to me.

Use spell like fairies fires or something more powerful, that would not make hiding possible for a while.

You can also use animal or monster with Scent, hiding dont prevent them to smell him...

 

[Aluvial]

The PC chose this class to do this kind of stuff. I think the solution for you is not to find rules that would diminish the class.

Instead, i would make my npc use continual light and reduce greatly the area of the shadowdancer to hide. Also i think that a character of level 19 would have a reputation and some people will be aware of him and what he do..

Also he could meet someone who have true seing, this should allow him to have a great bonus to see the shadowdancer according to me.

Use spell like fairies fires or something more powerful, that would not make hiding possible for a while.

You can also use animal or monster with Scent, hiding dont prevent them to smell him...

All of your suggestions are good ones. The problem came up when the thief attacked his oppoinent while both were flying and stole something from him, twice without being spotted... Incredible. Even though each character has what amounts to all around 360 degree vision, he still couldn't see the thief approach him, and then steal something from him in the middle of nothing but a bit of smoke!

I'm surely not trying to limit the class, but am trying to understand if I missed a rule about these abilities. It seemed to me that the thief, would be spotted regardless of the concealment, but that's the the power of Hide in Plain Sight.... you can't see him. Even with the -20 to the hide score, I still had only about a 27% chance on the two rolls to see him...

It defies the normal situation for character's noticing each other, even when attacking.

If I redefine the situation, and take the smoke and flying out of the equation, I still have a thief who can essentially sneak right up to a mid level guard (in plain sight) without the guard having a good shot at noticing him. Incredible.

Aluvial

 

[MoonZar]

All of your suggestions are good ones. The problem came up when the thief attacked his oppoinent while both were flying and stole something from him, twice without being spotted... Incredible. Even though each character has what amounts to all around 360 degree vision, he still couldn't see the thief approach him, and then steal something from him in the middle of nothing but a bit of smoke!

I'm surely not trying to limit the class, but am trying to understand if I missed a rule about these abilities. It seemed to me that the thief, would be spotted regardless of the concealment, but that's the the power of Hide in Plain Sight.... you can't see him. Even with the -20 to the hide score, I still had only about a 27% chance on the two rolls to see him...

It defies the normal situation for character's noticing each other, even when attacking.

If I redefine the situation, and take the smoke and flying out of the equation, I still have a thief who can essentially sneak right up to a mid level guard (in plain sight) without the guard having a good shot at noticing him. Incredible.

Aluvial

Okay then, just teach him a lesson for fun then

The next time he will stole something, he will grap a nice gems that worth a lot. But the problem is that the gems is protected with a spell.

If the thief keep the gems he'll be victim of a major curse with no save because he keep the gem on himself. Chose a curse of your own this doesn't matter, the important is that this bad and that the cure needed is a remove curse from a very high level priest.

Then he'll have to find a priest of high level, make him a hard time to find the right person. Then a priest of this level will ask a service in return, he don't care about money, he already have plenty of it.

So this will make our little thief have a lot of fun, to make a quest with the curse on him.

Maybe curse like -6 to dexterity and charisma until he have his remove curse or maybe lycantropy that he can't control hehehehe

A spell in dragonlance do something terrible like this, i just don't remember all the details.

What do you think ? This will make him think twice to steal too much and you don't fight the class with rules and this will be a good roleplay opportunity.

 

[ElectricDragon]

Was the smoke thick enough to give concealment to both the rogue and the target? If so, no sneak attack.

From the SRD, Rogue Class, Sneak Attack:

A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment

Ciao
Dave

 

[mikebr99]

All of your suggestions are good ones. The problem came up when the thief attacked his oppoinent while both were flying and stole something from him, twice without being spotted... Incredible. Even though each character has what amounts to all around 360 degree vision, he still couldn't see the thief approach him, and then steal something from him in the middle of nothing but a bit of smoke!

I'm surely not trying to limit the class, but am trying to understand if I missed a rule about these abilities. It seemed to me that the thief, would be spotted regardless of the concealment, but that's the the power of Hide in Plain Sight.... you can't see him. Even with the -20 to the hide score, I still had only about a 27% chance on the two rolls to see him...

It defies the normal situation for character's noticing each other, even when attacking.

If I redefine the situation, and take the smoke and flying out of the equation, I still have a thief who can essentially sneak right up to a mid level guard (in plain sight) without the guard having a good shot at noticing him. Incredible.

Aluvial

We're still talking about the 19th level shadowdancer right? And going up against a baddie with only a +6 spot?

Please bare in mind that you are only able to attack once (ie. std. attack) per round, while remaining hidden. Full attacking isn't allowed in combination with the hide skill, even if you throw HiPS into the mix...

Mike

 

[Aluvial]

Was the smoke thick enough to give concealment to both the rogue and the target? If so, no sneak attack.

From the SRD, Rogue Class, Sneak Attack:

A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment

Ciao
Dave

Ok, now we are talking. Although this isn't quite what I was looking for in the way of limiting the character, it is a good fact to know with this case.

Thanks,

Aluvial

 

[Aluvial]

We're still talking about the 19th level shadowdancer right? And going up against a baddie with only a +6 spot?

Please bare in mind that you are only able to attack once (ie. std. attack) per round, while remaining hidden. Full attacking isn't allowed in combination with the hide skill, even if you throw HiPS into the mix...

Mike

No, I know that. I think the issue is just that he can move, hiding, through mid-air, and still not be seen (assuming that there is no facing, which, of-course, is the rule).

Basically, this thief is so good at what he does, that he could fly up the shadow cast by his enemy in broad daylight, and not be seen by a creature who can effectively see in all directions. It takes some time to wrap you mind around the concept, but that's what make the Shadowdancer so interesting, especially when you are dealing with a concept (vision) that is downplayed much of the time. I try as a DM to force lighting issues, but now I am also forced to dictate exactly where shadows are cast and how large of an area that the shadow covers. This is taken to the Z-axiz, forces a lot of logical thinking in a short amount of time.

It's an interesting problem.

Aluvial

 

[MoonZar]

No, I know that. I think the issue is just that he can move, hiding, through mid-air, and still not be seen (assuming that there is no facing, which, of-course, is the rule).

Basically, this thief is so good at what he does, that he could fly up the shadow cast by his enemy in broad daylight, and not be seen by a creature who can effectively see in all directions. It takes some time to wrap you mind around the concept, but that's what make the Shadowdancer so interesting, especially when you are dealing with a concept (vision) that is downplayed much of the time. I try as a DM to force lighting issues, but now I am also forced to dictate exactly where shadows are cast and how large of an area that the shadow covers. This is taken to the Z-axiz, forces a lot of logical thinking in a short amount of time.

It's an interesting problem.

Aluvial

Wow this a lot of problem indeed... i don't see myself calculating the size of the shadow in function of the light and the angle they provide...

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I thought the -20 Hide rule only applied to sniping? Is there a cite for this that I can read up on?

 

[mikebr99]

No, I know that. I think the issue is just that he can move, hiding, through mid-air, and still not be seen (assuming that there is no facing, which, of-course, is the rule).

Basically, this thief is so good at what he does, that he could fly up the shadow cast by his enemy in broad daylight, and not be seen by a creature who can effectively see in all directions. It takes some time to wrap you mind around the concept, but that's what make the Shadowdancer so interesting, especially when you are dealing with a concept (vision) that is downplayed much of the time. I try as a DM to force lighting issues, but now I am also forced to dictate exactly where shadows are cast and how large of an area that the shadow covers. This is taken to the Z-axiz, forces a lot of logical thinking in a short amount of time.

It's an interesting problem.

Aluvial

I agree totally. But also at 19th level, there just so many options for the baddies to stop SAs from happening.

It is a really powerful ability... but only allows one sneak attack per round.

You need improved invis for full attacking.

Mike