Hide Skill and Hide in Plain Sight

[mikebr99]

I thought the -20 Hide rule only applied to sniping? Is there a cite for this that I can read up on?

Just this LP...

HIDE (DEX; ARMOR CHECK PENALTY)
Check: Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. You can move up to one-half your
normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take
a –5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

Mike

 

[Celebrim]

Keep in mind, it's a 19th level character with a class specialized in evading detection. Essentially, you've got a class that has a limited form of improved invisiblity all the time but has certain vulnerabilities (for example bright light).

Other than the fact that there should have been no sneak attack (because of mutual concealment) and a 20% miss chance (because of mutual concealment), I've not got alot of problems with what you just described. It is afterall a 19th level character. If you don't want to have this sort of stuff going on, don't play D20 up to levels approaching 20 (or higher). At these levels you are almost always going to have situations were one character is absolutely disadvantaged against the other because the random factor disappears under the size of a character's bonuses.

I'm assuming that the rogue has a relatively high sleight of hand skill as well. If he failed the sleight of hand check, the target would know that the object just went missing, even if he couldn't see what took it.

I'm further assuming that the rogue made a successful touch attack (with a 20% miss chance) to grab the object in combat.

BTW, you are looking at a prime case of why I don't allow prestige classes in a game. And what you've described is a relatively un-munchkin build that doesn't bother me all that much compared to alot of examples I've seen. I'd just make sure the party faced things with blind-sight, that had true seeing, high spot checks, or the ability to dispel shadows, or was at good at hiding as the shadowdancer was, etc. Think about the party running into a powerful Radiance quasi-elemental, for example. Or perhaps a group of Lantern Archons are tasked with gaurding a particular tomb that the PC's have to get into (which leads to an interesting RP oppurtunity, and possiblely some interesting good on good collateral damage). Perhaps the party has to face a Shadow Dragon or a other shadow stuff creature, and everyone in the party but the Shadowdancer is highly disadvantaged unless they use a really bright light to take away the monster's advantages.

At high levels in 1st edition, you generally had to craft 'nemesis' opponents that match power for power the abilities of characters. By 19th level, you've got a character that is a 'super'. Face the character with 'super-villians'. Think about some of your favorite supers and the sort of foes that they have to face. If you are really troubled by this, have the Shadowdancer run afoul of an organization or villian that either is Shadowdancers or else hates Shadowdancers. Use them as a reoccuring villian.

Don't of course do this all the time. The object is not to nerf the Shadowdancer. The object is to occassionally challenge the Shadowdancer. If you had a 4 player party, I'd only throw anti-shadowdancer tech at the party one in six encounters or so. Every once in a while I'd have an extended dungeon that really made life on the Shadowdancer hard ('The Dungeon of Scincillating Mirrors'). But to be fair, I'd do this to everyone in the party. The fighter would occassionally have to face monsters with ranged attacks and terrain advantages. The spellcasters occassionally have to fight in anti-magic fields, and so forth.

 

[Aluvial]

Yeah, I applied these rules also. The thief knew he had to either move (which in his case) was a -20, or attack, which was a -20.

One attack, but still, one sneak attack a round, standing right next to the target, and still the target won't be able to spot him 27% of the time! Incredible. Tie the sneak in with a three dimensional 5' step, and picking the squard for even a 50% miss chance, is very unlikely, even if you get a full round of attacks.

I should have been more careful in designing the foe, but I used the skill points in another way. This situation is what makes the game so much fun though. I try to play within the confines of the rules, which I think are very well designed, but still, situations always occur in the game that suprise me. You just can't see them all, evey single time.

I've never had to design an encounter just to foil a PC's ability, I just let the dice and the circumstance happen. This time the PC got the jump on me. Next time, he might get caught with Tremorsense, or Scent.

Aluvial

 

[mikebr99]

BTW, you are looking at a prime case of why I don't allow prestige classes in a game.

You can do this with core classes also...

Mike

 

[Aluvial]

Keep in mind, it's a 19th level character with a class specialized in evading detection. Essentially, you've got a class that has a limited form of improved invisiblity all the time but has certain vulnerabilities (for example bright light).

Other than the fact that there should have been no sneak attack (because of mutual concealment) and a 20% miss chance (because of mutual concealment), I've not got alot of problems with what you just described. It is afterall a 19th level character. If you don't want to have this sort of stuff going on, don't play D20 up to levels approaching 20 (or higher). At these levels you are almost always going to have situations were one character is absolutely disadvantaged against the other because the random factor disappears under the size of a character's bonuses.

I'm assuming that the rogue has a relatively high sleight of hand skill as well. If he failed the sleight of hand check, the target would know that the object just went missing, even if he couldn't see what took it.

I'm further assuming that the rogue made a successful touch attack (with a 20% miss chance) to grab the object in combat.

BTW, you are looking at a prime case of why I don't allow prestige classes in a game. And what you've described is a relatively un-munchkin build that doesn't bother me all that much compared to alot of examples I've seen. I'd just make sure the party faced things with blind-sight, that had true seeing, high spot checks, or the ability to dispel shadows, or was at good at hiding as the shadowdancer was, etc. Think about the party running into a powerful Radiance quasi-elemental, for example. Or perhaps a group of Lantern Archons are tasked with gaurding a particular tomb that the PC's have to get into (which leads to an interesting RP oppurtunity, and possiblely some interesting good on good collateral damage). Perhaps the party has to face a Shadow Dragon or a other shadow stuff creature, and everyone in the party but the Shadowdancer is highly disadvantaged unless they use a really bright light to take away the monster's advantages.

At high levels in 1st edition, you generally had to craft 'nemesis' opponents that match power for power the abilities of characters. By 19th level, you've got a character that is a 'super'. Face the character with 'super-villians'. Think about some of your favorite supers and the sort of foes that they have to face. If you are really troubled by this, have the Shadowdancer run afoul of an organization or villian that either is Shadowdancers or else hates Shadowdancers. Use them as a reoccuring villian.

Don't of course do this all the time. The object is not to nerf the Shadowdancer. The object is to occassionally challenge the Shadowdancer. If you had a 4 player party, I'd only throw anti-shadowdancer tech at the party one in six encounters or so. Every once in a while I'd have an extended dungeon that really made life on the Shadowdancer hard ('The Dungeon of Scincillating Mirrors'). But to be fair, I'd do this to everyone in the party. The fighter would occassionally have to face monsters with ranged attacks and terrain advantages. The spellcasters occassionally have to fight in anti-magic fields, and so forth.

Of course you are right, my guys don't build uber anything, this guy was the first in my group to take a Prestige Class and follow it through. I like the character design, and of course it comes with a lot of role-playing background.

My issue with high level is the overall complexity things take. There is a LOT to remember in any given round. Take the concealment issue. I did remember to take the 20% miss chance for attacks, and even for the Sleight of Hand, but I didn't know about the Sneak Attack in Concealment rule. I'll know next time.

Of course my discussion takes me away from the original problem and quesiton.

The games rules seem to be fairly well designed for levels 1-14, then break down in the face of trying to balance the characters at high level. Clerics are really nasty now, with a lot more damaging spells (Firestorm) is a real pain. Druids are much worse with their elemental summoning. The thief can hide right in front of you, and a Barbarian can score well over 100 HP in damage a round. Up the challenges to face these characters, and you have up the lethality of the game quite considerably.

As a DM, trying to balance appropriate tactical challenges along side of story for eight 19th level characters is nigh impossible. I feel that there has to be a cap somewhere.

Maxing skills is a bit of a problem for me. If you are good at one thing, shouldn't you have to have some skill at a bulk of the others? Saves are the same thing. Fighters with high Fort saves. Clerics with impossible Will saves. My characters very, very rarely fail their saves anymore. I remember, that was the same thing with 1st edition, except that characters of 9th to 12th level made all of their saves... I think there should be a cap. I don't know where it should be....

Anyhow, next encounter. Antimagic and some Iron Golems....

Aluvial

 

[Abraxas]

We're still talking about the 19th level shadowdancer right? And going up against a baddie with only a +6 spot?

Even if it was a 19th level rogue, with concealment from the smoke he could pull off his attack, and vs a +6 spot, it would be pretty easy.

Please bare in mind that you are only able to attack once (ie. std. attack) per round, while remaining hidden. Full attacking isn't allowed in combination with the hide skill, even if you throw HiPS into the mix...

According to the FAQ a full attck while hiding would be allowed.
You have to decide wether you like Andy's interpretation in the FAQ or Skip's in the Rules of the Game article.

I thought the -20 Hide rule only applied to sniping? Is there a cite for this that I can read up on?

Check out the 3.5 Main FAQ also.

Tie the sneak in with a three dimensional 5' step, and picking the squard for even a 50% miss chance, is very unlikely, even if you get a full round of attacks.

The target could always ready an attack to strike after being hit by his unseen opponent, then he would only have to deal with the 50% miss chance.


A simple solution to the shadowdancer HiPS ability that I have seen work is to rule that within the brightly lit area of spells like Light and Daylight (but not continual flame) there are no shadows.

 

[Len]

Even if it was a 19th level rogue, with concealment from the smoke he could pull off his attack, and vs a +6 spot, it would be pretty easy.

A 19th level wizard can cast wish or Mordenkainen's disjunction. A 19th level fighter can make four attacks for a huge amount of damage. A 19th level rogue should darn well be good at a few things too!

 

[Abraxas]

Most assuredly, I was just noting that the character doesn't have to be a shadowdancer.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

As a DM, trying to balance appropriate tactical challenges along side of story for eight 19th level characters is nigh impossible. I feel that there has to be a cap somewhere.

In the core game, there is one. 20th-level. So you're almost there.

Personally I love the 12-20 game. It's when the PCs really start to feel like Powers. It's when the Barbarian gets to feel like Hercules, and the wizard gets to play Merlin. etc. etc.

Still, as a DM I can understand what you're saying. The PCs only have to know their own characters. On the other hand, a DM has to try and create new level-appropriate baddies each week. Session prep time starts to creep up, and fast.

Btw, thanks for the references, guys. I guess I'd completely skipped over that section of the Hide description, having never had a PC or NPC with a high enough Hide skill for it to be viable...

 

[MoonZar]

In the core game, there is one. 20th-level. So you're almost there.

Personally I love the 12-20 game. It's when the PCs really start to feel like Powers. It's when the Barbarian gets to feel like Hercules, and the wizard gets to play Merlin. etc. etc.

Still, as a DM I can understand what you're saying. The PCs only have to know their own characters. On the other hand, a DM has to try and create new level-appropriate baddies each week. Session prep time starts to creep up, and fast.

Btw, thanks for the references, guys. I guess I'd completely skipped over that section of the Hide description, having never had a PC or NPC with a high enough Hide skill for it to be viable...

As you said this a LOT of work to play high level. I don't make much preparation for campaign of 10 level and lower, but i have to prepare for more then 5 hours for each session of high level campaign.