Hide Skill and Hide in Plain Sight

[helium3]

Yeah, his Sleight of Hand is impressive. My thought was that since the smoke is giving concealment (and a miss chance) than he can hide in it.

My problem comes in when he tries to do this in the future... he has to have something to hide behind regardless. Do you think he can hide behind his victim? He's small, and tends to reduce himself sometimes... This reduces the damage he can deliver, but do you think he can still somehow sneak up, get behind a target and remain hidden, in his target's shadow???

High level is giving me a headache.

Oh, I'd let a guy tumble while flying... why not? No better place to tumble in fact. There's no ground to contend with, and Tumble is just a nice way of saying twisting/rolling/turning/leaping around your opponent.

Shadows are hard to judge...

Aluvial

When our group got a shadowdancer a few years back, the whole "how much shadow is required" thing was a real problem. Basically, the solution we came to was that the shadowdancer could hide in plain sight as long as he was within ten feet of an area of shadowy illumination. That way, we didn't have to sit around and figure out whether or not there was enough shadow in a given area to justify being able to hide in plain sight. Although the rules specifically say "A player cannot hide in her own shadow", which implies that you should be paying attention to actual shadows being cast, actually trying to pay attention to something like this really causes the game to bog down. So, for the sake of clarity, we changed how the rules were interpreted. Again, I'll reiterate how incredibly stupid it is to write rules that imply that the DM must figure out exactly where shadows would exist based on the position of a point source of light. It's just dumb, not to mention there are shadows within 10' pretty much everywhere at all times unless you're on a featureless flat plane.

 

[MoonZar]

When our group got a shadowdancer a few years back, the whole "how much shadow is required" thing was a real problem. Basically, the solution we came to was that the shadowdancer could hide in plain sight as long as he was within ten feet of an area of shadowy illumination. That way, we didn't have to sit around and figure out whether or not there was enough shadow in a given area to justify being able to hide in plain sight. Although the rules specifically say "A player cannot hide in her own shadow", which implies that you should be paying attention to actual shadows being cast, actually trying to pay attention to something like this really causes the game to bog down. So, for the sake of clarity, we changed how the rules were interpreted. Again, I'll reiterate how incredibly stupid it is to write rules that imply that the DM must figure out exactly where shadows would exist based on the position of a point source of light. It's just dumb, not to mention there are shadows within 10' pretty much everywhere at all times unless you're on a featureless flat plane.

Anyway, most of the time they should have shadow near almost everytime except maybe in the plain and at noon.

 

[Aluvial]

When our group got a shadowdancer a few years back, the whole "how much shadow is required" thing was a real problem. Basically, the solution we came to was that the shadowdancer could hide in plain sight as long as he was within ten feet of an area of shadowy illumination. That way, we didn't have to sit around and figure out whether or not there was enough shadow in a given area to justify being able to hide in plain sight. Although the rules specifically say "A player cannot hide in her own shadow", which implies that you should be paying attention to actual shadows being cast, actually trying to pay attention to something like this really causes the game to bog down. So, for the sake of clarity, we changed how the rules were interpreted. Again, I'll reiterate how incredibly stupid it is to write rules that imply that the DM must figure out exactly where shadows would exist based on the position of a point source of light. It's just dumb, not to mention there are shadows within 10' pretty much everywhere at all times unless you're on a featureless flat plane.

I am going to have to adopt some easy rules about shadows cast, these are as good as any I can think of off the top of my head...

I know that in a dungeon setting, the PC's still have to have a light source to see. I assume that this casts a shadow most times, but in reality, the light that they use is all magical. I could play that it reduces shadows in the area it illuminates and that every thing out side of that radius/cone/beam is in shadowy illumination. That makes it easier. After so far, darkness returns... but how far would that really be? It can't stand to reason that the magical light only penetrates the darkness for the radius of the effect, it should shine on. How far away could you see a light source in the dark? Line of sight, regardless of distance, correct? How far does the light then shine from a magical effect? It has to create some shadowy illumination, how much. Double the radius perhaps? I really don't have a book in front of me to know...

Aluvial

 

[Aluvial]

I guess I was right.

From the SRD:hosted by www.systemreferencedocuments.org

Dwarves and half-orcs have darkvision, but everyone else needs light to see by. See Table: Light Sources and Illumination for the radius that a light source illuminates and how long it lasts.

In an area of bright light, all characters can see clearly. A creature can’t hide in an area of bright light unless it is invisible or has cover.

In an area of shadowy illumination, a character can see dimly. Creatures within this area have concealment relative to that character. A creature in an area of shadowy illumination can make a Hide check to conceal itself.

In areas of darkness, creatures without darkvision are effectively blinded. In addition to the obvious effects, a blinded creature has a 50% miss chance in combat (all opponents have total concealment), loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, takes a –2 penalty to AC, moves at half speed, and takes a –4 penalty on Search checks and most Strength and Dexterity-based skill checks.

Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light and of shadowy illumination for such characters.

Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can’t hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover.

 [b]Table: LIGHT SOURCES AND ILLUMINATION[/b]
 
[b]Object			 Bright		Shadowy		 Duration[/b]
Candle			 n/a		15 ft.		 1 hr.
Everburning torch	 20 ft.		40 ft.		 Permanent
Lamp, common		 15 ft.		30 ft.		 6 hr./pint
Lantern, bullseye	 260-ft. cone 120-ft. cone	 6 hr./pint
Lantern, hooded		 30 ft.		60 ft.		 6 hr./pint
Sunrod			 30 ft.		60 ft.		 6 hr.
Torch			 20 ft.		40 ft.		 1 hr.
 
[b]Spell			 Bright		Shadowy		 Duration[/b]
Continual flame		 20 ft.		40 ft.		 Permanent
Dancing lights(torches)	 20 ft.(each)	40 ft.(each)	 1 min.
Daylight		 60 ft.		120 ft.		 30 min.
Light			 20 ft.		40 ft.		 10 min.
 
1 [i]A candle does not provide bright illumination, only shadowy illumination.[/i]
2 [i]A bullseye lantern illuminates a cone, not a radius.[/i]

Aluvial

 

[Aluvial]

Hide in Plain Sight (Su)

: A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

So I have another question...

Does a character with HiPS have to remain within 10' of a shadow (even without an object to hide) to remain hidden, or can they then move into a brightly lit area (not within 10' of shadow), and still remain hidden?

Aluvial

 

[Celebrim]

So I have another question...

Does within 10' of a shadow, and without an object to hide behind mean that the character has to stay within 10' of a shadow, or can they then move into a brightly lit area, and still remain hidden?l

Generally speaking, moving to a new location requires a new hide check (as a free action that is a part of movement). If the Shadow Dancer moves to a brightly lit area under observation the Shadow Dancer will be unable to perform a hide check because their abililty to hide in plain sight only applies when they are within 10' of a shadow.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Of course, they can be in a brightly lit area within 10' of shadow, in which case, they can HiPS.

 

[Aluvial]

Of course, they can be in a brightly lit area within 10' of shadow, in which case, they can HiPS.

Exactly, but do they remain hidden while moving through a lit area that is not within 10' of shadow? I think they become visible.

What if the character has Spring Attack? Can the character with HiPS move from hiding (in shadow or darkness) move into the light, and then Spring back in to the shadow, and attempt a hide check? I say yes, because it is part of the movement, but it would take serious penalty, -20 for attacking, and another -20 if he had to make his full movement. Does this sound correct?

Regardless, the character does become visible when he enters within a brightly lit area that is not 10' within a shadow.

Alvuial

 

[ThirdWizard]

Regardless, the character does become visible when he enters within a brightly lit area that is not 10' within a shadow.

I agree with that. Just like if a normal hiding character steps out of concealment.