High defense barbarian

[Garboshnik]

In one of the old barbarian defense threads I saw the following comment:

Theorically, a barbarian could abuse his Agility feature by starting with a high Dex and boosting it every chance, granting him exceptional Striker AC and rogue-like Ref at high levels, but things would stay in control for a couple of reasons:
- Boosting Dex for AC and Ref would leech from either Con for HP or Cha for Will.
- Leaving a secondary stat behind worsens class features and some power bonuses.
- At worst, the barbarian gets +2 AC and Ref as levels rise.
- The flavor would be off. I think players will simply choose to forfeit Dex or boost it only half of the time (a nice compromise).

We've got a barbarian who has gone this route in our game and it seems really powerful. We don't have a comparable striker in the team to compare him to (only a Starlock) but his damage is normally high and becomes really impressive if he rolls a 20. His powers are generally effective despite the low secondary stat. We usually don't get more than 3 or 4 encounters in an adventuring day so he typically is able to use a rage ability each combat. Bear form grants +1 AC in rage and the boots grant +1 AC/Ref on a shift, meaning that his AC is usually a 31, almost as high as the Paladin.


I realize that I can always throw will attacks at him to bypass his strong defenses but I can't do that for too many fights. Also, even his will defense is not much worse than the bad defenses of other characters. Is there something I am missing about this build? He seems to combine high damage, durability, and speed and the other players in my game are starting to get jealous. I imagine it will get even worse when he gets ahold of Primal Power

Here are his relevant stats at level 12:
Human Rageblood Bear Warrior (note: one stat is higher by one due to a house rule)
str 21
con 16
dex 18
int 11
wis 9
cha 12

AC: 29 Fort: 28 Ref: 28 Will: 23
HP: 107

Feats: Toughness, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Armor Spec(Hide), Deadly Rage, Weapon Focus, Fullblad Prof
Items: Marauder's Earthide Armor, Boots of the Fencing Master, Amulet of Protection +3, Belt of Vigor

Devestating Strike: +18 to hit, 1d12 + 2d8 + 14 damage

 

[Rothe_]

Look at hide armor specialization in primal power and you'll worry even more. It allows a barbarian to use CON instead of DEX/INT for AC.

 

[Mentat55]

His defenses are good, but far from impenetrable. A typical lvl 12 monster hits his AC on a 12 or better, his Fortitude and Reflex on a 13 or better, and his Will on an 8 or better. Get combat advantage, and those all improve. The higher accuracier monsters (soldiers, artillery, controllers vs. non-AC defenses) will be even better.

Will attacks, especially on controllers, are common enough that he should see them very often. And he has decided to forego a very high Con mod for a higher Dex mod (this impacts a favorite paragon-tier barbarian power, Storm of Blades) and taken three paragon-tier feats to improve his defenses. So he should be rewarded, honestly.

What do the other players play? The starlock won't do as much damage, but should lay down great status effects and be more mobile (and have surprisingly good defenses, with Shadow Walk up all the time). And the paladin should be tougher.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

I like the looks of the Whirling Barbarian from Primal Power. Boatloads of damage, and because Dexterity is the secondary ability score, both AC and Reflex go through the roof.

But except for Thaneborns, all Barbarians have the same weakness: no Will defense. To a controller, they are nothing but high-damage puppets to be used against the party. I know, it's only in some encounters, but it only takes one encounter for a TPK.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I guess my comment would be that other 12th level characters should be able to compete with this effectively. It may be that this particular player is better at tweaking his character than the others. One thing he's going to suffer at is any kind of social or knowledge based task. Like most "gosh, this guy is powerful" types he IS powerful, in combat. Outside of combat? Well, he'll also be great at physical tasks but the rest of the party is going to have to carry him on everything else.

In other words, he'll get to shine pretty well in some situations and not in others. That's about par for the course in 4e.

 

[CapnZapp]

No, "outside of combat" is not a design parameter in 4E.

 

[Storminator]

My thought was he doesn't seem to be doing significantly more damage than our 6th level rogue, and only a little more than our sorcerer (who can Blast 3 for those kinds of numbers).

PS

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I like the looks of the Whirling Barbarian from Primal Power. Boatloads of damage, and because Dexterity is the secondary ability score, both AC and Reflex go through the roof.

But except for Thaneborns, all Barbarians have the same weakness: no Will defense. To a controller, they are nothing but high-damage puppets to be used against the party. I know, it's only in some encounters, but it only takes one encounter for a TPK.

This.

Just like in good old 3rd edition^^

Charm person and go get your friends

 

[Mengu]

They are comparable to Avengers. Both have high defenses, Avengers are more accurate and crit more often, Barbarians do more damage on a hit. A Dwarf Ranger in Scale with Urgosh can also compete with those defenses though may need a heavier investment.

Strikers are not all squishy. Some, especially those who are expected to play a secondary defender role, can (and should) attain some pretty good defense values.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

No, "outside of combat" is not a design parameter in 4E.

Right...

They are comparable to Avengers. Both have high defenses, Avengers are more accurate and crit more often, Barbarians do more damage on a hit. A Dwarf Ranger in Scale with Urgosh can also compete with those defenses though may need a heavier investment.

Strikers are not all squishy. Some, especially those who are expected to play a secondary defender role, can (and should) attain some pretty good defense values.

Yeah. I am in fact not entirely sure where the "squishy striker" thing comes from. The highest AC and Ref defense in the group I run are by a good couple of points the rogue. She has a pretty solid FORT too. The other striker? The warlock, forget hitting him. If he isn't outright hidden from everything he's concealed 9 out of 10 rounds and at that point his defenses are all at least one point better than the dwarf fighter.

In fact, when I want to hit something I go for the dwarf fighter and the STR cleric. Their defenses aren't shabby, but a couple points short of the strikers. Admittedly, the rogue WILL go down faster than the fighter due to having 25% less hit points. The STR cleric is really the weak link as far as overall toughness. She just never goes down because she can heal herself so easily.