High level 3e magic item purchasing... when does enough become too much?

[Kestrel]

You already noticed one thing you can do, which I'll stress. Don't gloss over the purchasing of the items, even if it is easy for them to move around. That way lies the Dark Side, wherein DnD becomes like a computer game. Keep the interactions with the people selling the items interesting, and keep the items unique. Even if it's Just a Ring Protection +1, use specific descriptions and give history to the items.

The question this raises for my game is how do I determine what items are avialable at a particular time? I have a group that heads to a Large Town (as in the DMG) every few weeks to liquidate loot and they want to purchase items from the crafters in town. How do I determine what should be avialable when they get there?

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Re: Re: High level 3e magic item purchasing... when does enough become too much?

Honestly, I thought WoTC was on crack when they refer to a market in magic items. Who exactly comprises this market? Most magic items are only useful to other adventurers (and there can't possibly be all that many adventurerers in any given world - unless there is a world out there which has ruins that continually spawn magic and gold to support all of them).

If you live in a world where the movers and shakers are or were professional dungeon-crawlers, I suppose you are correct.

A world with a modicum of medieval flavor would be mostly run by moderate to high level noble Fighters who are expected to lead their men in battle. They gained their experience mostly through rigorous daily instruction from personal trainers. These trainers would be extremely seasoned warriors, possibly former adventurer types who earned their skill the hard way, e.g. Duncan Idaho in Dune.

Since it is assumed few players are interested in years of farming, counting ducats, and spending extra cash on training, D&D does not provide rules for PCs to exploit this option.

The powerful nobles of the land would happily spend a fortune to equip themselves and their elite body guards. That is where all those +1 and +2 items you cash would tend to end up. Moderate to low power protection items would also be readily snapped up.

 

[mmadsen]

Since it is assumed few players are interested in years of farming, counting ducats, and spending extra cash on training, D&D does not provide rules for PCs to exploit this option.

Realistically, many more PCs should retire, or at least become generals rather than footmen. Then they can squabble amongst themselves over who gets to rule the conquered empire. Think of the conquistadors!

The powerful nobles of the land would happily spend a fortune to equip themselves and their elite body guards. That is where all those +1 and +2 items you cash would tend to end up.

Think of the mithril-clad guards in Gondor or the ornately liveried guards of any medieval prince.

Moderate to low power protection items would also be readily snapped up.

What medieval prince wouldn't want every protective talisman he could come by? If you were rich and powerful, what would you buy?

 

[Pielorinho]

Even if they make their own items, it shouldn't be automatic, I think. That money you spend on item creation isn't just smelted down and poured down the sink; it's spent on rare ingredients.

Many of those ingredients can be bought on the open market, probably. But some will require black-market contacts, and still others are only available in exotic cities, and still others can't be purchased except from bounty hunters hired specifically for the job.

I like the idea of a high-level barbarian approaching your party and saying, "The Voice of the Gods tell me that you carry a powerful trident with you. How much would you sell it for?" If NPCs can get approached like this, why not PCs?

Daniel

 

[Henry]

One of the absolute RatBastardish things a DM of mine once did was to have a long term behind the scenes enemy funnel the party magic items. We received them from conquered foes that seemed to weak to have such items, hoards of treasure, gifts from grateful nobility, and purchase. And many of them were set to either not work at all on their creator (the enemy behind the scenes), or be under their creator's control (same villian).

In this way, he was able to make sure that many of the items we were able to get our hands on could be tested out in campaign...

FORGOTTEN REALMS SPOILER

...as I recall, this is exactly what the Red Wizards of Thay are trying to do in Faerun currently...

 

[Henry]

...Many of those ingredients can be bought on the open market, probably. But some will require black-market contacts, and still others are only available in exotic cities, and still others can't be purchased except from bounty hunters hired specifically for the job.

I like the idea of a high-level barbarian approaching your party and saying, "The Voice of the Gods tell me that you carry a powerful trident with you. How much would you sell it for?" If NPCs can get approached like this, why not PCs?

Daniel speaks the voice of wisdom, here - I would expect PC to know this, being the King of Rat Bastard DM's that he is , but it is good advice that bears repeating in case ANY Dungeon Master misses it.

In my 2nd edition campaigns, Any time a character wanted to craft or commission a magic item, they cried tears and sweat blood for it - especially if it was a particularly powerful item. And the funny part is, they valued them far more than any items that they found in some random treasure pile.

Stories are still told about the Fighter in our party who wanted Boots of Springing, Striding, and Speed, and the many quests he went on, both as a group and by himself, to get the ingredients for the mage he commissioned. His friend (who was playing a half-ogre Fighter) will never let him live it down, because it was he who took the 70 points of damage from a latched-on Aurumvorax while trying to bag and skin it.

As stated many times, creative magic items are one of the most fun and mysterious parts of the game. Making them commonplace enough to throw gold at robs a campaign of a vital element.


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Pcat, I would do that comparison that Gargoyle suggested, and also make sure that everyone making magic items has one component that needs to be actively quested after. Working that into the future Underdark run you were talking about, it would a perfect place to drop those rare components.

 

[Tzarevitch]

Re: Re: Re: High level 3e magic item purchasing... when does enough become too much?

If you live in a world where the movers and shakers are or were professional dungeon-crawlers, I suppose you are correct.

A world with a modicum of medieval flavor would be mostly run by moderate to high level noble Fighters who are expected to lead their men in battle. They gained their experience mostly through rigorous daily instruction from personal trainers. These trainers would be extremely seasoned warriors, possibly former adventurer types who earned their skill the hard way, e.g. Duncan Idaho in Dune.

Since it is assumed few players are interested in years of farming, counting ducats, and spending extra cash on training, D&D does not provide rules for PCs to exploit this option.

The powerful nobles of the land would happily spend a fortune to equip themselves and their elite body guards. That is where all those +1 and +2 items you cash would tend to end up. Moderate to low power protection items would also be readily snapped up.

I would disagree. First a lord would have to be out of his mind to spend "a fortune" on magic items for himself and his retainers when the same amount of money can probably cover the regular maintenance on his castle, and allow him to upgrade his farmland. a noble lord probalby has a couple of magic items that he acquired or were passed down to him, but he won't likely be spending much hard earned money on more. Even if he were to spend lots of money on magic items, but equiping a couple of lords and their retainers is not the makings of an entire market in magic.

Someties the wealthy would like some magic to assist them, but that only goes so far. A lord usually is not spelding his time battling ghosts and things that require magic. He spends time administering to his estate and defending it. A couple of magic items will not help him when his neighbor marshalls an army against him. He'd be better off spending money upgrading his army and castle with a little money going for a choice magic item or two in case of emergencies. There simply aren't THAT many nobles and retainers who need much magic or can afford it. Even if they do choose to buy some magic weapons and protections it usually is a near one-time purchase. After all, it is not like your new lot of magic swords is going to wear out en masse.

Believe me, I know. I play in a 3e Birthright campaign in addition to the other campaign I run. I am a Ran1, Pal 1, Cler12 and I rule a fairly large theocracy. I have about 500 or so priests at my beck and call, I have a 15th level court wizard, and my wife is a 7th level wizard. Despite all of this I can't afford to equip all of my loyal retainers with magic. For the cost of a dozen minor magic swords I could equip an legion of 200 men, or I could maintain my castle or road network for 3 months.

Any given small settlement will likely only have one minor lord and his retainers. En entire country say the the size of Cormyr in FR probably has no more that 50 landed noble families at best. It is possible that some merchant lords might want some magic too but there aren't that many of them either. The lion's share of the popolation: slaves/freemen/serfs etc have no real need for magic items. The farmer doesn't need a magic long sword to protect his farm when a stout staff will do about as well, especially when the magic sword would probably cost more than the entire farm's upkeep.

My argument is that maybe 100 or so buyers in an entire country (who are not adventurers) is not a ready "market". Magic items are basically exotic goods. Their value tends to be high to the few people who need them and can afford them (which is to say the wealthy and adventurers) and they have little value beyond their utility to everyone else. Since most magic items aren't preishable what little "market" there is doesn't even renew itself. Only adventurers (and their nemeses) need to "keep up with the Jonses" with regard to procuring bigger and better magic.

(Wait a minute! There's a thought. . . perishable magic items. I'll have to spring that one on my PCs. But back to the topic. )

That is one of the reasons why I have such a problem with the Red Wizards in FR and their magical merchant emporium nonsense. The entire concept really only works as a business if you have a steady flow of customers who need a ready supply of magic (the more expensive the goods the fewer the customers you need) but the only people who need a constant flow of magic are adventurers. I find it doubtful that most areas have all that many adventurers in to maintain demand (especially considering the tendency for adventurers to be a destabilizing force in large numbers.)

All of this is why I go with the theory that there is no market for magic items. If you want to sell an item, you need to find that rare someone who is actually interested in buying it. If you want to buy a certain item, you realy need to contract with a particular wizard or priest to custom make it, and he will charge whatever he feels it is worth to you (in advance).

Tzarevitch

 

[Metheus]

As a player who is trying to responsibly create magic items, this is something that I've thought about for a while.
-I dont think there are that many mages/clerics willing to give up the time and XP to create items. I know how much I hate to give up XP even for minor things, and I dont expect NPCs to be any different. There is only a finite amount of XP that an higher level mages are going to gain if they spends most of their time creating items and not adventuring. How many of them are going to be willing to part with that time and XP for some punk adventurer who wants a shiny new toy, or for some store to sell for a quick profit.
-The prices in the DMG, which really shouldn't be looked at by players, are a guide to creation costs more than buying costs. The idea of there being a 'book value' for magic items or even equipment is pretty silly. Even in our connected society, you can find different prices on the same item from one place to another. In a place where info doesnt really travel quickly (at least for the commoner) the prices would be highly different. Not every longsword in every FR store from the jungles of Chult to Thay, to the tundra of the North is going to cost 15gp. The availabilty of materials and crafters changes prices from place to place. Beyond that, the market gets what it can, so if a place has a lot of adventurers willing to shell out 20gp for that sword, it will cost 20gp. When you start considering the supply of displacer beast hides, beholder eyes, and red dragon blood, magic item creators are going to become pretty scarce.
-Quests to find material is key. If some adventurer wants mithril chain, they should darn well have to find it themselves. The idea of walking into a store and buying a chunk of mithril is pretty absurd, even in the largest of markets. What little supply that would come into a store would be reserved beforehand or exchaged for favors. Items like that have a much greater price than their gp 'book value' states, no PC could ever walk into a store and just buy it, or even order it for gold. Whatever adventurer found those supplies will have found enough gold and items to make some less bold PC adventurer's offer laughable.
-Because of the above factors, most of the magic items found for purchase will either be stolen- from crypts, dungeons, houses, caravans, ect. Just because someone finds something in a dungeon doesnt mean that there isnt an adventurer's family, possibly with scrying spells, looking for the family greatsword +3. If something comes cheap, that could mean there is an irate nobleman looking for the Brooch of Charming that was taken from him. Dont go overboard with this, not every +1 ring has people chasing after it, but the major items, if taken from somewhere, are surely going to be looked for.

 

[Paladin]

I guess I'm in the extreme minority here, but I believe that if the characters have the money, there's no item out of their reach. I equate it to real life: if you've got the money, someone will sale you whatever you want. This is especially true if you have the right connections.
I run the Realms, and since it's a high-magic setting, what sense does it make to not have access to magic items? What's the point of having every rulebook, supplement and adventure have new magic items, if PCs "aren't supposed to have them" or "can't buy them"? One of the great things about this game, IMHO, is the variety of magic items available for play. Earlier I spoke of having the right connections. In the Realms there is an organization known as the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, basically a large guild of spellcasters. In many worlds there are Wizard's Guilds. What sense does it make that if one of your PCs is a member of one of these guilds, that he can't buy or sell items? Even if none of your PCs are members, do the guilds not like to make money? What about buying items from temples? It would be a pretty lousy, not to mention quick-lived, religion that had no magic items for it's followers to have access to.
Urbanmech said in his campaign the fighter and rogue feel like treasure is worthless because they can't buy any magic items with it. Where's the fun in that? Most adventurers are out there crawling through dungeons for wealth, prestige, and power. If wealth means nothing because all you can do is buy more land and castles (woo-hoo! big fun there!) and prestige and power are hard to come by being 15th level and wielding that +2 dire flail you aren't even proficient in....what's the point of adventuring? Retire and live off the taxes the peasants around your (no doubt) gargantuan castle provide you. This game is supposed to be fun, I thought. What kind of sense does it make to run a campaign where no PC can buy or make magic items? Where the hell did the existing magic items come from then, if no one can make them? The wondrous item tree? The lake of potions? The armor faerie?
I also don't agree with the selling of magic items at half the market value. I can fully understand selling mundane items, armor, weapons, etc. at half price. They are all subject to wear and tear, and since they were obtained by adventurers, most likely are bloody with lots of holes and slashes. However, magic items are by their nature superior works of craftsmanship. They do not age like normal items, they are vastly more resilient, and their power doesn't wane unless they have charges. It doesn't make any sense that a headband of intellect +6 should be sold for 18,000 gp. Why? Because since Bob the dead wizard used it, now it doesn't work as well? Um, no. It still provides a +6 enhancement bonus to Intelligence...so why the drop in value? Anyone who can explain that to me, feel free.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

What medieval prince wouldn't want every protective talisman he could come by? If you were rich and powerful, what would you buy?

Actually that is a very good point. Even a stay at home statesmen would pay handsomely to increase their ability to withstand disease...or poison. I recall seeing an ornate cup in a museum carved from a single amethyst, repuded to protect from drunkenness and poison.

I can think of many uses for items that protected from fire or cold, or increased movement.