High level 3e magic item purchasing... when does enough become too much?

[herald]

Ex wool exports in england.

That didn't happen in the middle ages, that happen latter.

various quality assurance laws of england.

That also happened latter.

Even the law that inspired the baker's dozen came about because of the Reniassance.

But I will agree with you Jasper. Piratecat is not likely to get a good answer simply because most of us haven't played in his game.

And to who ever brought up "modern, capitalist, monetary economy."

The Law of Supply and Demand have not changed from then until now. They still guide all market places everywhere. There might be artifical controls implmented in different locations, but it still exists.

Now, I suppose someone could create a game worlds where supply and demand don't really work, but it would seriously change the basic economy that is set forth for typical D&D games, and hench change the basic reward structure for adventurers.

I would advise Piratecat that you tell your players that you would consider thier requests one by one, and ballance thier requests vs. game playablity. And remind them to becareful what they request. Once they open Pandora's box, they have to live with it.

Secondly, I would seriously consider some of the most powerful items might actualy have some vulnerbilites.

For example, Vecna created the Sword of Kas, but made the blade powerless against him. If the characters have any enemies at all, revenge is always a posibility and having a piece of equipment fail in the most inopertune moment is more than likely fatal.

Valuable magical items are also likely to be wanted by rivals. Rivals don't have to be villians, but should be on par with characters. Powerful items arn't likely sitting around in shops, they are going to be auctioned off.

But no matter what, be true to the game that you have had in the past.

 

[Kugar]

But this is what I don't understand

The feats to make magic items are in the PHB.
For Scrolls and potions all the creation rules are in the PHB.
For the other stuff the rules are in the DMG. This means that the prerequisites, costs, and availabilty should rest squarly on the DM. It seems when it comes to magic a player is allowed to say: Well in the DMG it says I only need "Keen Edge" Spell, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, X gold and Y XPs. What happened to the days of: You read the DMG!! Lose a level and keep you nose where it belongs! No more magic items that consists of just smelted gold, silver and copper with some gems thrown in.
I guess what I'm saying is that the Item Creation Rules are where they are for a reason. I find it very hard to figure that a lot of magic would be openly available, but in all likelyhood some of it would. The players should expect to find something if they conduct a good search for magicical items, but just because an item has a cost in the DMG, does NOT mean that it has to be on sale anywhere in the cosmos.
As for what to do with money if magic isn't available: Don't you think that you characters want a headquarters? Is it really true to the Paladin's Code to have collected the amount of money in a small country's treasury without helping those in need more? The fighter could take the leadership feat and comand a loyal archer corps to give an edge in combat. How about esquire's fees, and political influence? Money isn't just for Magic anymore.

Kugar

 

[Numion]

That's some amazing team play on the part of the cleric. I don't see much point in leaving the person with the best melee skills out cold as far as magical support goes, while buffing a character that could do so many other things. If your going to buff yourself for melee, why not use those spells on the fighter too? You won't be using the other spells if you're using the buffs, and thus fighting in melee combat, so there's little reason not to.

The cleric in question worships a god of Battle, so it's natural for him to buff himself up and and wade into battle. A large part of his spells are spent on protecting the party (Death Wards for all, healing). There just aren't enough spells to boost the groups fighters also. So your assumption about the clerics team-play ability is false.


Also the comment that the cleric wouldn't/couldn't use other than buff spells because he's in melee doesn't make very much sense. My games aren't endless combat. In the meantime he uses his utility spells (etherealness, for example), or sometimes he even uses attack spells.

Don't be so quick to jump into conclusions. You'll go wrong more often than not.

 

[Rugger]

The decison to allow players to buy magic is not one to be taken lightly...as I am finding out now in my campaign.

I came up with a system that goes something like this:

1. Players decide what they are looking for

2. ONE (the one doing the shopping) makes a Gather Information roll, DC based on the cost of the item, how exotic it is, etc. This is actually a penalty to my players, because NOBODY has Gather Information. It becomes, "hey paladin, can I borrow you for a day?" One Check per day. Period. This hurts them because we are doing RtToEE, and every day away is a day of restocking for the Temple....

3. If they manage to find it, then begins the haggling...I randomly determine if the seller is sleazy or legit (which determines if it is easier to use Bluff or Diplomacy to haggle) and then do some opposed checks...usually they end up spending 10-20% over DMG prices.

Now, I was all proud of myself for this system. I thought that it would keep things under control. Wrong.

The wrong player managed to get some great rolls, and now has ended up with a few items that I really regret allowing. He's the min/maxing type....

As of now, we are on a lock for buying (most) items...I just don't like the dirty feel of it...and some players can NOT be trusted to buy "in-character" (but should they even have to? it IS a "Role" playing game...argh! the dilemmas!)

It all depends on your campaign flavor. If someone is doing the WoTC adventures....the PC's will gets lots of cash, and have little to nothing to spend it on (Other than Magic). The best thing a DM can do is to control the money flow...make the players squirm and save up to EARN that magic item they really want. I started the campaign that way and it did work. It was a moment of weakness that changed things

To sum up for The One Leged Feline Bucaneer:

Ignore everything I just said. You have some wonderful players, that sound as though they CAN be trusted...and besides....your baddies have BABIES strapped to themselves fer crying out loud!!! They deserve to be pummeled in new and inventive ways!


-Rugger
"I lurk....again!"

 

[Darkness]

Ps, Someone talked about RAM memory and third world countries, but I live in Brasil and can buy RAM any time I want....

Heh. Yeah... When he (can't remember who it was) said "Third World" he probably was thinking of Africa (or its poorer nations, specifically).

 

[Vuron]

Well ignoring the comments about free market vs controlled commodities (blah, blah, blah) I'd use the markets as a way of fostering new adventure ideas on people.

Example: If you assume for instance that major psionic items are pretty much the realm of the giths and the mindflayers you either force the PCs to pay extra in a place like Sigil, where they have to compete on cost with numerous other bidders (factions, blood war generals, proxies, etc) or go to substantially more hostile locations such as a mindflayer city (which of course would earn them the enmity of the giths).

Furthermore while most magical traders are probably well guarded against thieves (wards, guards, etc) there are probably more than a few spies outside watching for items to liberate from thier new owners. A Balor who could use item x to further his plans suddenly is very interested in the PCs who buy it.

Beyond that numerous good NPCs are liable to try to purchase items to take them out of circulation, if for example your campaign is largely on Oerth Mordekainen and company are probably loath to allow a major influx of weapons that could fall into the hands of Iuz etc.

In most of the campaigns were people have the ability to purchase items beyond potions and simple magic items I rarely have the sellers be humans or standard demihumans, as these races are either highly focused on keeping power or highly sentimental. That generally leaves Planar Races and the Arcane which often leads to unique situations.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Of anyone, I'm glad that you disagreed with me Ridley's Cohort. I do not mean this as any sort of personal attack, it is just that of all the ideas on the thread, the one that prompted me to post was yours. The idea of merchants around the D+D multiverse looking at a +1 sword and then whipping out their bluebooks to find the resail value is great for highly ordered campaigns, but very low on roleplaying value. Yes, adventurers should haggle over every +1 sword they want to buy. Every NPC has their own motivation for selling a magic item, and if they all come up with exactly the same price, its going to be a pretty stale world.
I'm glad that you agree with me on the finding of materials for magic items. Most openminded DMs would lower the item creation cost if most of the materials were found instead of bought, I'm sure.

No offense taken.

I am taking the position of advocate for The Rules Work As Is. If you just let the rules run their course, I think things will more or less work out just fine. Especially if you keep an eye on the wealth levels.

Certainly there are other ways of dealing with magic items. Most of your ideas would certainly work, albeit it would require a lot of time and energy on the part of the DM.

I like the idea of quests for materials. I like the idea of getting items made "at cost" from a significant person for "a favor".

What I do not like is the idea of NPCs getting reasonable and interesting items automatically, but PCs always have to loot the dead to get anything worthwhile, cash and minor items are of limited value, gawd help you if you want to buy a lousy potion of Fly or a ramdom scroll. Been there. Done that.

The 1e/2e extreme also ends up being quite like a video game where Monster Generators create villains with +1 swords but I am never allowed to acquire a +2 bow from my own direct effort. I am left with no recourse but to beg the Gaming Gods that a villain will appear that has an item I want. Bleeech!

I am rather fond of the idea of a magic formula being required to make any item. The magic formual is akin to a spell formula. Frex, a +2 Flaming Burst weapon would require a "level 4" formula. Many simple formulas would be easy to acquire, and those items are generally available on the market as well. So you can't make or buy just anything, but most anything would be available with time, effort, research.

 

[Rune]

Personally, I'd just give each item bought (and made) a percentage chance (say, 5%-10%) of being cursed. Naturally, the PCs wouldn't find out until it mattered most.

In your campaign, though, P-kitty, I wouldn't think that this would be necessary. Just come up with a generic (but campaign-specific, of course) list of descriptions and backgrounds for a few magic items and wing it when the time comes. I think that both you and your players are accomplished enough to pull this off without losing the flavor of the campaign.

 

[mmadsen]

Everyone I know plays in a D&D campaign where you can buy magic.

We bought magic items at the magic store too...in fourth grade.

Anyway, I don't think anyone's making the case that no magic should be for sale at any price, just that finding what you're looking for isn't trivial (you can't just go online and search), and that a simple gold-piece cost doesn't reflect the "realistic" price for magic items.

It only makes logical sense that magic and magical items would be bought and sold like any other commodity.

Perhaps we should look at how other commodities are bought and sold in a quasi-medieval economy, because they're not bought and sold like commodities in a modern economy.

There are no banks. There's no financing. There's no stock market. In fact, loaning money at interest is usury, a punishable crime (for Christians). Thus, any big purchase (castle, ship, business, magic widget) is problematic.

Goods come from a guild with local monopoly power enforced by the local ruler (for a fee). You generally buy from someone you know personally, and "buying" often involves barter. You can't hold onto great wealth without military power. Great wealth means large amounts of land. Communication is limited to whom you can meet face to face, although powerful nobles and merchants have literate scribes capable of reading and writing messages.

In a system like this, how would you buy and trade the equivalent of a nuclear missile? Or perhaps a nuclear missile crossed with a work of art -- since it requires rare skills and rare raw materials mixed into a (fairly) unique end product of great power.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but you certainly don't walk into town with a few chests of gold and ask someone where you can buy a Wand of Fireballs.

Besides with the Item Creation feats all you need is gold and XP and you can make any item you want.

That's up to the DM, isn't it? And isn't that just what we're trying to decide? What the DM should allow? What makes sense, what makes for a fun game, etc.?

Yes, he does live in a modern capitalist economy but economics is nothing new.

A modern, monetary, market economy is quite new. There's a lot of infrastructure that goes into producing a market where all the rules from Econ 101 about a perfect market in equilibrium come into play.

Furthermore, I would argue that there was FREER market in the middle ages then there is now.

We can debate how free a market is when most craftsmen belong to guilds with monopoly power enforced by the local government (the nearby noble and his men). At any rate, it's still not an efficient market, because communication and travel are so limited/expensive.

D&D, however, is an RPG driven by the inputs and actions of a group of (self-interested) players and a DM.

Like pirates or conquistadors. May I recommend The Discovery and Conquest of Mexico by Bernal Diaz Del Castillo, a first-hand account of Cortes' campaign in Mexico, as a wonderful example for a D&D campaign?

 

[Victim]

Since when is D&D a medieval society?

Sure some items are like "nuclear missiles crossed with works of art."

High level characters are even more the atomic weapons though. Or, if items are nuclear missiles, then they're the long range bombers. Characters of a level with PC's pcs don't even walk any where. Windwalk here, Teleport there, scying on him, and then sending to him.

I see very little evidence in the story hour that the PC's world has all the components of Earth's history that resulted in medieval society. Just by looking in the player's handbook can one see many reasons against a medieval economy.

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Re my comment about the cleric:

I apologize for leaping to an erroneous conclusion. However, I'm sure you're aware of the many "cleric=broken" threads and similar statements regarding many clerical spells. In many of these threads, clerics that only buff themselves, and then outshine unenhanced fighters, are held up as a serious problem. Because of your initial comments, and the many similar complaints about clerics, I reacted hastily.