High level 3e magic item purchasing... when does enough become too much?

mmadsen said:

We can debate how free a market is when most craftsmen belong to guilds with monopoly power enforced by the local government (the nearby noble and his men). At any rate, it's still not an efficient market, because communication and travel are so limited/expensive.

I do not actually disagree with any of your points, but I think that 3e takes this into account by imposing a 50% liquidity penalty on the sale of all items.

If you want the real world, really big tickets items would be sold through a guilded merchant. He would arrange a sale by carefully spreading word through his more trusted colleagues, perhaps to far away cities. Negotiations would be handled by letter or word of mouth. The various middlemen would end up taking a 10-20% cut off the final purchase price as commission. You would not necessarily know what the negotiated purchase price was. "I think I have found a buyer for your suit of armor. You would get X gold. Interested?"

For the reasons that you stated, the merchants are not going to have thousands of coin handy. So they can't usually purchase an expensive item without a buyer already lined up.

The transaction takes weeks or months to complete.

OTOH, if you care about realism, the PCs should be sitting around the taverns bored for 5 months of the year. Nobody fights wars or goes adventuring much when the weather is iffy for travelling. So the time factor is not such a big deal after all. If you care about realism you need to capture the big picture.

I believe it is just easier on the DM hit the PCs for 50% of the value of the stuff they sell up front, and not sweat the details of the mercantile system. That is adequate for most 3e campaigns.

A reasonable compromise for expensive items is to have each PC put the word out through a merchant contact for 2-3 things they are looking for. Of course these are general descriptions. The DM can design 3-4 items, and come back with a price.
 

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Thought I'd toss in some thoughts on this subject. Although I'm one of Piratecat's players, I think I can keep my opinions unbiased. ;)

Regarding the "economic" issues of magic items creation and sales: Piratecat's world is one of widely varying economic strata. We come from relatively small kingdom, where magic items aren't readily for sale. (No demand means no incentive to supply). But in our travels we have found places in the world with increasingly large economies, and increasingly large demand for magic items. Far to the east of our "starting point" we travelled to a city called Oursk, bigger by far than any place we had seen in our own lands. As a consequence, it has a larger population of high-level characters, all of whom wouldn't mind owning/buying/stealing/creating magic items. Other adventurers, high-level politicians and noble-persons, members of secret societies, wizards in their guilds, army commanders -- the demand for magic items is higher, and so is the supply. There is more money in those places as well, so if the head of the thieves' guild wants to secretly commission half a dozen Amulets of Nondetection or something, he can afford to pay the price. More recently the party has reached Sigil, and of course Eversink, a nest of powerful and unsavory types, many of who have come to own magic items and are always looking for more. (Even if it means taking them from us!)

Regarding the number of magic items in the world: unless there's some strong force at work that destroys items, there's a good reason that there are lots of magic items lying around. With the exception of Potions, Scrolls, and charged items, a magic item will usually (not always, but usually) be around forever. Some wizard 600 years ago made himself an Amulet of Health +2, went out adventuring, got killed by an owlbear, and 600 years later it's made its way into a dragon's hoard. Or into the hands of an evil mercenary captain. Or whomever. Sure, some magic items are destroyed in combats, but most non-pershable magic items ever made are still around somewhere. That's a lot of items! That a limited market has emerged for these items does not seem to be a stretch for me. No, I don't envision a chain of Ye Olde Arcane Item Shoppes on every street corner. But maybe there's a rich retired adventurer who just died, and his widow would rather have a new mansion and servants than Dimensional Shackles and a +3 bastard sword. Or a Wizard's Guild requires its members to create three magic items a year, which are sold to raise money to research new spells and buy fine wine for the guild cellars. Or a storeowner in Sigil or some other large city has a stock of a couple dozen miscellaneous items, which he sells out of the back room of his alchemy and spell component shop. Or the temple to which your adventuring cleric often makes donations is willing to have a 6th-level priest there make you some small-to-mid-power item to order, in return for all of your tithes. Or the the local church of some good deity will make you a longsword +2, if you give them the Mace of Nasty Evil +3 you took from a recent villain, so that they can destroy it properly. In a large universe with large cities, I could imagine dozens of places an adventurer could go to acquire magic items, some of them to order, and some on a take-what's-available basis.

Sigil is an interesting case -- it's a city connected to an infinite numer of primes. You'd have thousands of adventurers arriving, wanting to buy or place orders for magic items. As PC has said, we can usually find what we're looking for in Sigil, or have it made for us, but the waiting period can be months long or longer, since 28 other adventurers showed up first all wanting a Ring of Freedom of Movement.

Anyway, I could easily imagine a cash- and magic-poor world where there just isn't the demand for items. But in PC's world, it makes sense. For the record, I recently compiled a long "shopping list" of items that I thought would be of benefit for our upcoming descent into the underdark to stop any army of improved ghouls. I sent it to PC, but not as a "list of things we're going to go buy," obviously. It was a list of "things we're going to go see if we can find someone selling, or someone willing to make." While I don't know what PC will do with that list, it wouldn't surprise me if he came back with something like:

"These three items you find for sale. These other four items could be made for you, but will cost you X gold pieces and Y weeks. These two items aren't for sale, but you find some similar items for sale if you want to buy them. An NPC has this item you want, and will trade it for [some exotic item or monster part]. These three items are rumored to be in a Cryohydra's lair 130 miles west of [some city.] This item is the offered reward for anyone who brings in the head of the local crime boss in [some city]. And these other 17 items... no dice. You'll have to make them yourself."

Not that I'm one to tell PC how to run his game... he may very well have -- ok, probably does have -- all sorts of other nefarious ideas in mind. In fact, there happens to be this *other* convenient military campaign vs. undead going on now, which may dampen the local availability of anti-undead items.

On making items ourselves: I'm of the opinion that few additional restrictions should be placed on the creation of Magic Items. It already costs days or weeks of time, experience points, piles of cash, and (most importantly, lest people forget), at least one FEAT. I know this will sound flip, but imagine if a fighter had to go on a quest for every month they wanted to use two-weapon fighting, or great cleave. I like the idea of cool quests as much as anyone, but there are all sorts of good reasons a DM can come up with to send adventurers on quests, without requiring extra ones in order to make use of an ability that already comes with a cost. Sure, if a wizard wants to make something extraordinary, like a Helm of Brilliance or a Staff of Power or a Ring of Elemental Control, then sure, include a quest for ingredients/formulae/whatever. But if I just want to use my Item Creation feat (along with most of my treasure share from the last adventure, along with hundreds of XP) to make a Belt of Giant Strength +4 or a Wand of Fireballs, I don't think there necessarily *should* be a large additional onus. It's the DM's job to regulate the amount of money the PC's acquire, and the amount of free time they have, if they want tight controls on the proliferation of magic items.

As for "coolness" and "unique flavor," that's still a fine thing to strive for. If your PC's want to make items, encourage them give you a full description, of the color, materials, special affects and name. So instead of a simple Amulet of Health, they have Treandle's Jewel of Vigor, an emerald that glows softly and pulses with living energy.

Also, remember that the game balance of 3E assumes that these feats will be selected and used. There's nothing inherently wrong about restricting the creation or discovery of magic items in any way you want; just remember that if you add additional obstacles, you should lower your campaign difficulty accordingly.

Lastly, I'm of the personal opinion that if you're going to have grand adventures resulting in piles of gold coins and gems and priceless objects d' art, the PC's should have something fun to spend that money on. There's only so long one can bathe in loot, fun though that is. Eventually you want to turn it into tools to better let you go kick more evil butt.

-Sagiro
 

Well said Sagiro...

I think in the end its a question of how you reward your players ? They will get either Gold and/or Magic Items. Even in a slow or magic poor world eventually characters will load up somewhat. At 15th lvl characters having only a +1 sword can make for some lousy gaming... lots of gold lying around useless wont help too.

Many DMs probably avoid the Magic item shopping phenomena by giving the players their "reward" in magical items. Yet how much can desbelief survive when all the items seem custom made for the group. Finding a +2 Kukri and you´re specialized in Kukri is pretty far fetched in most campaigns. Most magic would be more usual magical weapons... but then you screw those players who wants to specialize in more exotic stuff. Or you load up the group with weapons and magic items they dont like and cant sell off because there isnt a market to exchange them for more useful ones.

Also as the levels go up... Base Attack is +1 a level... AC doesnt go up at all. Players need to get some good AC bonuses from time to time... and buying/making armor is one of the best ways.

So if you give the players Gold do expect them to use it... its boring to have fat bank accounts. Let them purchase what is best for them... DM can always veto some item choice.

DMs frequently dont want to lose time rping shopping trips... so this item purchasing fasttracks what can be a lot of lost gaming time for some.
 

Have you played in a games where GMW gets used a lot? What fighter in his right mind would quest for a sword +4, that a cleric can enchant with a single spell for 12 hours? The argument that magic items flies only as long as there aren't many spellcasters around.

In a 'normal' D&D game, there are many spellcasters around. Probably the party itself will have one or two spellcasters. 10+ level spellcasters pack so much magical power that haggling for a +1 sword when they are around seems just petty.

All the PC classes should have acces to magic. With non-spellcasters it comes in a form of magic items. This is the basic premise of 3e D&D. Trading in magic items is only natural for this game. With all the creation feats in PHB it would be strange if magic items couldn't be bought. Wizards can double their money with creation of items.
 

To get back to the original question:

I wouldn't worry too much about the increase in power that allowing PC's to buy magic items will bring. The designers have gone to great lengths to balance magic, and as long as the PC's remain within the guidelines, everything should work out well. It also helps if you avoid allowing one character to have a single item worth more than 1/2 of the total recommended wealth for that character's level. The real challenges to balance will come from exceedingly powerful effects, rather than an amalgamation of lesser effects. Consider that at high levels, their opponents should have very powerful abilities that the lesser defenses will only partially negate or may be wholly useless against. As an example, it's great to have a ring of resistance +5 and Great Fortitude when you're targetted by Finger of Death, but Power Word:Kill doesn't care about that namby-pamby fortitude save. As another example, your ring of displacement will work wonderfully against the 12th level fighters who haven't chosen to learn the Blind-Fight feat (it's a great feat, btw), but the 16th level fighter with the Goggles of True Seeing isn't going to care one whit.

At any rate, you should also remember that the designers factored in item destruction when they balanced the treasure tables. I think I remember reading that they expected the party to lose roughly one major, non-expendable item each level.

As far as flavor/feel of the campaign goes, I think it decreases the enjoyment of the players if you don't allow them to create or purchase magical doohickies with their hard-earned wealth, especially once they have access to magics such as wind walk, plane shift, etc.
 

Re: Re: Re: High level 3e magic item purchasing... when does enough become too much?

Piratecat said:
More the former than the latter. Although I no longer control access to the markets to the extent I once did, I think successful and smart players should reap the benefits of their success. I have no interest in arbitrarily limiting access because I'm scared it might be a problem. I'm a lot more interested in making such access interesting and noteworthy, and I'm not sure I've been doing that to the extent I should be.

I doubt you'll have much trouble in that area once you devote your (rat bastard) mind to it! :) I would assume that throwing around large sums of money in Sigil can produce many unwanted consequences...

Reapersaurus identified part of my worry; it's harder to judge the effect of several mid-power items than it is one uber-item. I can judge whether or not the staff of righteous wuss-smacking is too powerful or not; it's the combination of the wand of mighty pectorals, orb of lung bursting and scarab of cowering on PCs who have bought them to shore up their defenses. That part is still going to require a leap of faith; but with some of these ideas, at least the acquisition might be fun. :D

I think you are right to worry here. It's clear that the DMG listing is far from perfect; add to that the ability to commission entirely new items and there is great potential for something to slip through the cracks.

I was lucky enough to spend many years GMing superhero games using the Hero System, where players have (potentially) unlimited flexibility in purchasing powers and combinations of powers when they create their characters. It's a great system, but it requires a lot of GM oversight; the same kind of oversight you need when looking at magic items.

Personally, I would be frank with the players and simply say that you may not be able to properly assess the balance of some items until you've seen them in play. If something inappropriate slips through, make a correction when you find it and move on. There are plenty of in-game excuses you could use (Ethereal Filcher, items breaking or wearing out, sabotaged items, etc.), or you could just do a "retcon".

I allow players to freely construct items, and relatively free reign in purchasing items. There are not "magic shops", but it's a relatively simple matter to find and commission a spellcaster to create an item, or to find people who happen to have items for sale. I haven't had any problems yet, although the system does create more of a Diablo-esque atmosphere than I might like. Still, that seems to be what they intended for 3E.
 

Great thread! I'm actually paying attention to the availability of items in Sigil. See, my characters are in Sigil, so they're always likely to be shopping in the Market Ward for goods.

Only point I want to contribute to PC is the presence of the Factions. The Free League maintains their presence in the Great Bazaar; the Doomguard are the main sellers of weapons in Sigil; the Fated impose heavy taxes on the purchase of varied items (and there are new tax laws born every year, much like the US). Money talks, sure, and Sigil is a crossroads where you can find nearly anything. But if there's one thing more important than jink, it's philosophy.

" Sure, I have this nifty Rod of Perilous Might you seek. But you see that member of the Fated over there? He's been watching my sales heavily, and I'm not selling off anything this expensive (and therefore more taxable) while he's around. Now, if you can get him off of my back, then I'll consider making the sale..."

Not to forget that Sigil merchants love to overcharge 'those clueless Primes'.
 
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Kestrel said:
The question this raises for my game is how do I determine what items are avialable at a particular time?

I maintain a list of 10-20 multiple use items, plus a like amount of potions and a like amount of scrolls that each of two brokers in town has access to, as well as some other locations I have hinted may have magic items that the players have never checked out. Every time the players review the wares of a broker, I swap out 1d6 old items with 1d6 new ones. I use Jamis Buck treasuregen to generate the items, which he has really tweaked out in the last month or so (he has items from a huge variety of sources, including the book of eldritch might, relics & rituals, and magic of faerun, and you can pick out which sources you want to use.)
 

Kid Charlemagne said:
I like Plane Sailing's suggestion of making several items, and letting the PC's choose which ones to buy. I also think its important to develop the sellers as best as possible.

I do something similar... it's the only sensible way IMO. I have two brokers in my city, each one has a fluid list of items that they can get a hold of at any given time. They only keep "minor" magic items on hand.

They also tend to barter over using coins, and I am trying to institute a system whereby most magic items trade is for other magic items and/or power components. That way you have a more sensible economy vice sloshing around hundreds of thousands of gold at high level... instead, you can trade the dragon heart you found worth 2000 XP for 10000 XP of magic items, or whatever.
 

There are no banks. There's no financing. There's no stock market. In fact, loaning money at interest is usury, a punishable crime (for Christians). Thus, any big purchase (castle, ship, business, magic widget) is problematic.

Really, then explain how the Templars got so strong?

Governments still borrowed money and were expected to pay interest in it.

Greyhawk has a religion based on doing business. I wouldn't be surprised that they do money lending as well.
 

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