High Level Fighter Vs. High Level Barbarian

Trainz · Feb 13, 2004

I like that analogy !

Scion · Feb 13, 2004

Trainz said:
At 20th level, with feats from PHB and CW, a fighter can get two elven lightblades, and max out on two weapon feats (with the appropriate defense feats). That's 8 attacks per round for the fighter, crit 15+.

8 attacks? 4 from BAB, 3 from twf, where does the 8th come from? what sort of damage do these thinblades do? I am guessing that they cost a feat.

So just to do this the fighter burns pretty much all of his feats? interesting

you should fully stat this guy out and actually try him against a barb. If there are full stats on here somewhere and I missed them somehow then sorry, will check again later.

3 feats twf, 2 feats specialization, 2 feats focus, 1 feat weapon, 1 feat improved crit, + defensive feats, + whatever other feats are necissary to make the build go. That is a LOT of feats, the fighter had to give up some serious versitility to get there.

Even with all of that though I'd still be in the barbarian camp really, 5/- will hurt those attacks a great deal. Effectively more than countering 2 feats. With an animated shield or one of those feats that allows use of a shield with a weapon the barb isnt hurting horribly for ac, he'll actually have pretty close to the fighters.

Plus, no matter who wins the fight, the barbarian is still much, much better outside of the fight. Is the fighter really so much better in the battle to be so bad out of it?

James McMurray · Feb 13, 2004

ACs:

Fighter: Adamantium Full Plate +5 (DR 3/-) & Large Shield +5 & Dex +1

Barbarian: Mithral Full Plate +5 (DR 5/-) & Buckler +5 (w/ Improved Buckler Defense) & Dex +3 & Rage -2

The barbarian's AC i equal and DR is higher. If the fighter goes two-weapon (and not spiked shield) his AC goes down by 1. If the fighter switches to Mithral Plate to gain AC, he loses in the DR race. The fighter can pull ahead by using a Tower Shield for two more AC, but then he loses the ability to fight with two weapons effectively.

Defensively, fighters and barbarians are fairly closely matched.

Gort · Feb 13, 2004

Epametheus said:
a L20 barbarian with a +5 breastplate would cap out at 23 (21 after Rage), while the fighter with +5 fullplate and a +5 shield would cap out at 31 or so.

Or you could get say, an amulet of natural armour +5, and a ring of protection +5 as well, and bring your AC to 31 and 41 respectively.

Scion · Feb 13, 2004

and an item that will polymorph him into a troll or some other creature like that

Not terribly difficult to hit the mid40's really, and at that point a difference of a few points isnt quite as major usually.

jgsugden · Feb 13, 2004

But you're all forgetting that use magic device is a cross class skill - so the fighter can use scrolls, staffs and wands! A 20th level fighter can have a UMD of +24(23 cross class ranks = 12 effective ranks, 18 charisma raised 4 times to 22 and then adjusted +6 with an enhancement bonus to 28, skill focus and magical aptitude). All the fighter has to do is use a wand of fly (no AoO) and head for the sky and use his bow or spell scrolls/wands! The barbarian won't have a chance! The fighter can hang out in the sky and blast down ont he barbarian with spell scrolls too. Or just slowly finish him off with a few wands of magic missiles (cl 1).

Did I mention this is a stupid exercise?

Scion · Feb 13, 2004

And the barb has more skill points with which to do that with. They lose less by doing so.

Jgsugden, so far as I can tell you disagree with the whole rules forum. Everytime someone tries to figure out how things balance out without being campaign specific, which is a very valid way to go, you come in and say it is pointless. While this is your perogative I am confused as to why you continue to do so, if it isnt what you like to do then dont do it, but dont just post to say that other people are wrong in their views. I dont mean to bash or flame, it just seems very odd. Sortof like poking ones self in the eye and saying, 'wow, this hurts', and then doing it again.

LightPhoenix · Feb 13, 2004

The best way I've heard to resolve this (though it hardly needs resolving) is to put both the fighter and the barbarian into a number of different situations and see how each of them does in each situation.

Korak · Feb 13, 2004

Scion said:
And the barb has more skill points with which to do that with. They lose less by doing so.

Jgsugden, so far as I can tell you disagree with the whole rules forum. Everytime someone tries to figure out how things balance out without being campaign specific, which is a very valid way to go, you come in and say it is pointless. While this is your perogative I am confused as to why you continue to do so, if it isnt what you like to do then dont do it, but dont just post to say that other people are wrong in their views. I dont mean to bash or flame, it just seems very odd. Sortof like poking ones self in the eye and saying, 'wow, this hurts', and then doing it again.

Well, I traded shots with Jg in another thread, but I am definitely in his camp on this thread. It really is pretty silly. I am sure that for any given bbn or ftr build that someone could post here, I (or any other competant character builder) could post a member of the other class that could beat him in a one on one fight with certain circumstances. The point is that these exercises only show that there are a lot of ways to build fighters and barabarians, and that any build will hae strengths and weaknesses.

Barbarians and Fighters are pretty damn even. The choice between them is a choice of style/flavor. Which do you want to play? (if you want to play a straight class character at all)

Deset Gled · Feb 13, 2004

Jgsugden, so far as I can tell you disagree with the whole rules forum. Everytime someone tries to figure out how things balance out without being campaign specific, which is a very valid way to go, you come in and say it is pointless...

I don't think jgsugden is trying to argue with the way balance works across different games, I think he's pointing out that the method some people are using for comparing is ineffective.

When comparing a barbarian and a fighter, it doesn't work well to try and bring in specific examples of specific builds to claim one is better than the other. When you do, you just start seeing people making builds specifically to counteract the last example. It's a lot like two kids playing with make believe guns saying "I shot you first!", "Oh yeah, well, you couldn't shoot me first because I'm wearing a bullet proof vest!", "Oh yeah, well I shot you in the head!", "Oh yeah, well I'm wearing a helmet!", "Oh yeah, well I'm using armor piercing bullets!", "Oh yeah, well I dodged it!".

By the way, are you all serious when you say UMD is a cross class skill? I don't own a 3.5 PHB, but in 3.0 it was an exclusive skill (and it's not mentioned in the SRD). If so, that's just horrible.